Kenya Defence Force

thank @ mJESHI mMOJA. i also got wind on AML90 upgrades what that all about.

to add on the above whats the severity of the MD500 as rated to other gunship

Olekoima wrote:

mJESHI mMOJA wrote:Ok after the internal skirmish, lets get back to our matter at hand. First and foremost I would like to welcome, Mr. Spartan your arrival will always be remembered.

As ole Nkarei has said it earlier.They are a lot of upgrade that are going on. Here is a picture of an upgraded MD500 Hughes with a hughes mast mounted fire control radar.

500MG Defender



it offers as a multi-mission version combining features of the Advanced Scout and MMS-TOW Defender versions, fitted with a FLIR night vision system. As an alternative to TOW missiles, the Defender II could carry a 30mm Chain Gun cannon or two Stinger air-to-air missiles on each side of the fuselage

Thanks for the info mJeshi mMoja.
Are they upgrading the entire fleet? I mean the 35 of them? This is good especially to add to the WZ-9 attack choppers. Massive air borne arty.

Obviously not all 35 of them, as there are degrees of wear not justifying the upgrades. But our attrition rate has been extremely low. However the wz-9 and its derivations are set at 70 Units, when deliveries are complete. This should give some 'impression' of the intended levels with the Mi35 gunships too..

If you, Bro Olekoima, were a Infantry Brigade Commander at some point Busia about to jump off into Uganda, what you rather have 'dedicated' to you - a Company of 20 MBTs, or a stick of these upgraded four MD500MG Defenders? Heheh!!

[If you, Bro Olekoima, were a Infantry Brigade Commander at some point Busia about to jump off into Uganda, what you rather have 'dedicated' to you - a Company of 20 MBTs, or a stick of these upgraded four MD500MG Defenders? Heheh!!
]
Woe be unto any Commander with the unenviable task of crossing into Uganda now. We are able to locate and neutralise any tank from more than 4kms away(the world's best tank, the Abrams, can only engage a tank at 2km, so we don't use tanks as we have none even close). For anything in the air, that distance is multiplied to more than 15km. And I am not talking about missiles. Remember the 117 Sudanese captured by the UPDF in 1997 after hundreds more were left on the battlefield, they were in a tank battalion. Alternatively you can ask the Angolans and Zimbabweans why their superior air assets were useless in DRC.

Never underestimate the Gumboot Army..lol. I have heard many on this site and others referring to the UPDF as such. It is meant to belittle us but what I think what it does is to expose the lack of understanding of the environment in which you are supposed to operate. I don't know what some people think war is. You don't go to war in your polished boots and return in the evening to your barracks. Soldiers here have been left to their devices in jungles with swamps, rivers or even on mountains for months. In 1996,our mountain troops, the Alpine Brigade, was forced to scale the Rwenzoris for three months without coming down until the ADF relocated to Congo. The longest a good boot can last is one and a half months in these conditions. Where you have to cross rivers and swamps, three weeks at most. All this in addition to reducing the mobility of the troops by up half. So we can have the boots for morning parades, state functions and the support troops that don't go into battle. Never mind, you would have to learn all this the moment you crossed Busia into the home of swamps, rivers and lakes.

Anyways, I am getting tired of scenarios against Uganda alone. I stand to be corrected, but I think the differences Uganda and Kenya have are skin deep and based on your suspicions about the intentions of one man. Ugandans are not xenophobic towards Kenyans the way Tz are.

So, how about some scenarios of crossing at Namanga for a change?

Brother Spartan - I don't imagine that discussions here indicate a Kenyan penchant for War on your country. I doubt there will ever be war between us, all things remaining constant. These are theoretic simulations by people that live and breathe War. It is legitimate and expected past-time and preoccupation of men-of-War, after all, much ahead of any declarations of hostilities, to simulate War against all perceived threats.

I have no xenophobic tendencies towards the Pearl of Africa. Nor against Ethiopia, Sudan, Tanzania, Somalia, against whom I regularly participate in real-time War Simulations as an occupation. I doubt any of the other Kenyan contributors are any different from myself.

Lol brother Spartan you would like to hear a Namaga jump over scenario. The massai warriors around that area can get the job done without any assistance from the regular policemen.

Back to my topic on gunships:
Our country operates mainly two major types of attack heli. MD500MD Defender
for Reconnaissance, scout and anti-soft skin target and the 500MD/TOW Defender Anti-tank version of the MD500MD . it is armed with TOW anti-tank missiles. The structural differences between the two helis Is the MD500MD has full frontal glass cockpit while the MD500MD/TOW has anti tank sensors fitted on the left had side of the cockpit. . It houses the same anti tank optical/radar as the AH-1 cobra.
. The 500MD was under used and upgrades were done to a MD500MG.

Recall the talk with the neighbor with plenty of china amour.

MD500MD/TOW


500MD Defender





https://americansystems.ats.hrsmart.com/cgi-bin/a/highlightjob.cgi?jobid=7360

@ole Nkerai
I know Kenya is bitter over Migingo, and Busia jump over is the nursery rhymes of the KDOD. Just keep it on paper and drawing boards all will be ok.

@mJeshi
The AH-1 cobra nose doesn,t resemble the ones used on the MD500MD/TOW.

Spartan wrote:[If you, Bro Olekoima, were a Infantry Brigade Commander at some point Busia about to jump off into Uganda, what you rather have 'dedicated' to you - a Company of 20 MBTs, or a stick of these upgraded four MD500MG Defenders? Heheh!!
]
Woe be unto any Commander with the unenviable task of crossing into Uganda now. We are able to locate and neutralise any tank from more than 4kms away(the world's best tank, the Abrams, can only engage a tank at 2km, so we don't use tanks as we have none even close). For anything in the air, that distance is multiplied to more than 15km. And I am not talking about missiles. Remember the 117 Sudanese captured by the UPDF in 1997 after hundreds more were left on the battlefield, they were in a tank battalion. Alternatively you can ask the Angolans and Zimbabweans why their superior air assets were useless in DRC.

Never underestimate the Gumboot Army..lol. I have heard many on this site and others referring to the UPDF as such. It is meant to belittle us but what I think what it does is to expose the lack of understanding of the environment in which you are supposed to operate. I don't know what some people think war is. You don't go to war in your polished boots and return in the evening to your barracks. Soldiers here have been left to their devices in jungles with swamps, rivers or even on mountains for months. In 1996,our mountain troops, the Alpine Brigade, was forced to scale the Rwenzoris for three months without coming down until the ADF relocated to Congo. The longest a good boot can last is one and a half months in these conditions. Where you have to cross rivers and swamps, three weeks at most. All this in addition to reducing the mobility of the troops by up half. So we can have the boots for morning parades, state functions and the support troops that don't go into battle. Never mind, you would have to learn all this the moment you crossed Busia into the home of swamps, rivers and lakes.

Anyways, I am getting tired of scenarios against Uganda alone. I stand to be corrected, but I think the differences Uganda and Kenya have are skin deep and based on your suspicions about the intentions of one man. Ugandans are not xenophobic towards Kenyans the way Tz are.

So, how about some scenarios of crossing at Namanga for a change?

@ Spartan,
Well, i agree with you. It is becoming tiring to read about these simulations against Uganda alone. It is not as if these two coutries will even fight some time. I think it could be fair for us to compare capabilities of East African forces with say those of the Sudan, Ethiopia, Eritrea etc. I don't foresee any wars in East Africa. We are for intergration.

Flying Crane wrote: @mJeshi
The AH-1 cobra nose doesn,t resemble the ones used on the MD500MD/TOW.

new member on board? welcome Spartan

@flying crane
The picture you have posted is of an AH-1Z called a super cobra. Its an upgrade of the AH-1 and the sensors are different. mjeshi is talking about the AH-1F.

Risasi wrote:

Flying Crane wrote: @mJeshi
The AH-1 cobra nose doesn,t resemble the ones used on the MD500MD/TOW.

new member on board? welcome Spartan

@flying crane
The picture you have posted is of an AH-1Z called a super cobra. Its an upgrade of the AH-1 and the sensors are different. mjeshi is talking about the AH-1F.

Actually the Americans call it the Viper, I hear Turkey opted for this over the Kamov KQA-50 HokumB?

jasiri wrote:

Risasi wrote:

Flying Crane wrote: @mJeshi
The AH-1 cobra nose doesn,t resemble the ones used on the MD500MD/TOW.

new member on board? welcome Spartan

@flying crane
The picture you have posted is of an AH-1Z called a super cobra. Its an upgrade of the AH-1 and the sensors are different. mjeshi is talking about the AH-1F.

Actually the Americans call it the Viper, I hear Turkey opted for this over the Kamov KQA-50 HokumB?

Screw Turkey Jas. They cocked as up when they turned down The Denel AH-2 Rooivalk deal. That made us go fishing else where and landed us in china.

Yap your right on that one the AH-1W is the super cobra while the Cobra Zulu is the viper. Thanks

@ Olekoima and Spartan
You will never find people debating about hiked prize of unga and the cost of living in this blog. This section of the blog is purely for military debates by local experts and fanatics. Crossing over to each other boarders although it may not happen is a day at the offices for them. Bare with them and lets enjoy the ideas and the rare intel that will come across.

The 500MD/TOW fires the TOW anti tank missile has its own sensors, and didn,t require extreme upgrades as it has a design function. It carries the same nose as the AH-1F cobra which is good enough at the moment. The 500MD seemed to have lagged behind or out lived its usefulness in a mordern battle field. It is being upgraded towards an Apache AH-64 type of gunship operations. The small box above the main rotor is similar in operations to the Hughes AH-64. The sight/weapon system combination enables the nimble, MD500MG to hide behind a hill, building, treeline or whatever, find the target and fire a TOW missile over the obstacle without exposing the helicopter to enemy fire.


These are the abilities of the apache AH-64 has and have been will be adapted to the MD500MG upgraded

N/B
they are a differences in the appaches AH-64 gunships.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_AH-64_Apache#Variants

the “D” series also know as the longbow is the only one in its family that can hide behind a hill, building, treeline and fire missile thanks to the dome installed over the main rotor.

The MD500MD

Will be upgraded to
MD500MG/upgrade


The MD500MD/TOW nose sensors similar to that of the AH-1F

And am guessing it won't stop at that. The Md-500MG nose mounted camera will be upgraded too right? that makes logical sense to me. If the mi-35's are coming in as D.A.P's what will be the role of the Z-9WG's?

Sisal Makonge wrote:@ Olekoima and Spartan
You will never find people debating about hiked prize of unga and the cost of living in this blog. This section of the blog is purely for military debates by local experts and fanatics. Crossing over to each other boarders although it may not happen is a day at the offices for them. Bare with them and lets enjoy the ideas and the rare intel that will come across.

That i know which is why i' am in this blog. Read my post again. It is actually about expanded simulations so that we gauge how our East African militaries are likely to fare in comparisson with other more potent adverseries.

There is an in-equal flow of opinions across-borders, (see how docile the other chapters in this blogs are?), probably this is what funnels the debate somewhat. So, maybe we can start drifting a little into these other Chapters, no?

But guys, in the absence of the real thing, what is an over-trained soldier to do with his time? Simulations, and simulations, some surreal others almost real, is what keeps these paid killers sane / defined in the barracks and out of your business.

@Ole Nkarei, i'm now officially a convert of the expanded forces movement. I hear 9th Infantry are set to officially move to Mariakani (that now makes it a garrison right?) and in it's former home a new bat, 17th Bat is being born. That makes the military restructuring program a happening reality. Kenya is happening!

@jas.
One thing you have to know is that or if you have ever heard about it is that the Mi35 or Mi24 cannot hover. They are something’s I fail to understand about East bloc ordinance. They always seem to have a design flaw in a way or another .from the AK-47 to the MiG29 they is something about them that will always be a miss and the Russia never bother to fix it. the biggest flaw in the Mi35 which contradict its purpose as a gunship is that the helicopter can’t hover in mid air. That aircraft can only be used as sort of a slow attack craft. Have a look at Mi35 attack clips and you will notice that it performs its attacks in a figure 8 pass.

Back to your question, the Mi35 will be used as an aerial infantry fighting vehicles. Delivery troops to the battle field fight along them evacuate them and depart. The other essential helicopter assaults i.e the air Calvary operations will be performed by the Z-9 and the modified MD500. the Z-9 will be used for airborne corps. operations. The attack version will escort the utility version that will be laden with troops.

Mariakani has always been a Garrisons, and is referred so in all activities including sports. It was formed after the 77 artillery battalion had to evacuate Nyali barrack due to sea salt Corrosion on the artillery pieces.

how does it take off then????????? Mi35

So it is now obvious that the KDoD is moving to become a more offense capable war machine. Increased mechanisation and air mobility/Incresed SoF. However, Risasi, with all this isn't it wise for the KDoD to find a dedicated rotary air assault craft? The Z-9WG is more of a DAP than a gunship and upgraded Mosquitoes to me(don't know about those with the expertise) seems a little inadequate for the expanded mission of the KDoD.

That's the army, what became of the air force? i hear Aprons at L.A.B are being expanded is this in anticipation of new birds? drop a himt or two about the type, just bush clear don't snipe ;-)

@jas
at the moment let us take it that the apron over haul was due. I can’t give any wind on any situation until officially declared ndugu. I can confirm that the FC-1 and the J-10 deal snagged due to engine rights. The FC-1 uses the Klimov RD-33, MiG29 engines and the J-10 uses the Saturn-Lyulka AL-31FN Su30 engines all russian made. the Russia feel that the aircrafts are a direct competitors to the MiG29 and Su30 and supplying them with russian engines is a shot at its on foot. the engines are passed for use in the china and Pakistan markets.

The shopping cart is still half filled. The Hongdu L-15 Falcon will very soon land in as a fast jet trainer.

@balozi
Taking off and landing in a helicopter doesn’t equate to hovering. Hovering consist of a balance of downwash force and lift. The Mi35/Mi25 has wing stubs for caring weapons that tend to interfere with the downwash by creating air vortex hence losing power during the hovering sessions. Other helis like the MD500/ZW-9 have rod like support for caring weapons which don,t affect the downwash. Such Helis are good for scouting and anti armor operation as they can stalk their preys slowly at a distance and attack when the time is right. The MD500 still dominates in this role in our gunship arsenals. When the Mi-35 is fully loaded it has to taxis and takes of like a fixed wing plane.

Mi-35


Hughes


Zw-9



The ops of the Mi-35 will be as stated previously. I know the next question is why we buy such an aircraft.

The answers are when you intend to have a Special Operations Aviation Regiment (Airborne), two types of helicopters are called into action.

1. utility transport helicopter for troop caring.
2. D.A.P Direct Action Penetrator, primary mission of armed escort and fire support

Its always ideal to have both helis from a similar platform or engines because of
1. Logistic and spare parts
2. during an air assault the D.A.P and the utility helicopters have to fly/run at the same speed and range without one straining to catch up or slowing down to put up with the other. Slowing down or over acceleration wears out engines.

Having a gunship that share same parts with your utilities heli. Compliment the above thesis at it best. It was proposed that the Denel AH-2 Rooivalk was to be brought in as it shares similar parts with Puma. The deal went sour when Turkey air force which was to buy 90 example abandon the deal leaving only 12 examples being manufactured for the south African airforce.

Denel AH-2 Rooivalk


The Mi35 and the Mi-171 share the same engines and parts and is therefore logic to the Mi-35 in our forces. Others include the Z-9WA (gunship) and ZW-9 (utility)

in the western sphere the AH-1 cobra and Bell UH-1 Iroquois/Huey chooper. The Sikorsky UH-60 Black Hawk (utility) and the MH-60L (gunship version) by the USMC. the Lynx AH.1 and its utilities version for the Brits.

in our Earlier topic:
The proposal of using the HJ-8 anti-tank missiles for the ZW-9A was due to the armor/Tanks/APC that we might face which is composes of cheap derivatives. Its therefore economically to attack cheap tanks with similar cheap missile. The price of a TOW missile used by the MD500 is almost 80% worth of a local manufactured al bashir tank for Sudan or a China type 88 tank that many surrounding armies operate. so lets hit them with cheap ordance it economically

I reckon from study that the the Mi35 is the the best Gunship ever produced and designed, specifically designed for the primary role to attack Armoured Vehicles of the latest generation. It is in my view the fastest, most capable helicopter gunship of its time, extremely popular with ground troops because it is capable of landing and fighting from the ground just as effectively as from the air with unprecedented deadly results- its inability to hoover as a stationary fire-platform while being a drawback only to that extent, makes it extremely versatile and effective in a fast-flowing battlefield dominated by Armour and battlefield anti-Air Mobile Defense systems. Now, against Mortar and Arty emplacements, the devil is in real season!! Last thing you really want to spot on your battlefield horizon is the approaching hazy outline of a Hunter-Killer stick of two going-to eight of these monsters!!

As both an Utility and DAP player, this thing exponentially enhances our force-projection in unimaginable ways.

The MD500 will primarily slave to the SoF (recon, insertions / extractions, fire-support, etc) while the zw-9wg takes precedent in the Air-cavalry anti-amour / DAP / armed escort / some battle-field fire suppression / support roles primarily in the province of the Mi-35.

Last year, we had the largest most-deadly Anti-Tank Killer Force in this entire region. This year...and going forward...?

Risasi wrote:@jas
at the moment let us take it that the apron over haul was due. I can’t give any wind on any situation until officially declared ndugu. I can confirm that the FC-1 and the J-10 deal snagged due to engine rights. The FC-1 uses the Klimov RD-33, MiG29 engines and the J-10 uses the Saturn-Lyulka AL-31FN Su30 engines all russian made. the Russia feel that the aircrafts are a direct competitors to the MiG29 and Su30 and supplying them with russian engines is a shot at its on foot. the engines are passed for use in the china and Pakistan markets.

The shopping cart is still half filled. The Hongdu L-15 Falcon will very soon land in as a fast jet trainer.

The L-15 is used to train 4th Gen fighter pilots on handling. Now the J-10 has been eliminated the FC-1( sorry risasi, i know of your lust for this bird) too has been eliminated. Going by those two choices the K.A.F had i'd speculate that the Grippen too is in contention as the next primary fighter of the KAF. All in all, i hope the KAF will not get tempted and go Chinese again on Fighters.

Separately, the mil Mi-35 trully is a menace to infantry anywhere. However i think the guys at air calv will seriously need to train on this bird, which i have no doubt they will. I'd hate to be on the recieving end of those twin 30mm's

ole Nkarei wrote:I reckon from study that the the Mi35 is the the best Gunship ever produced and designed, specifically designed for the primary role to attack Armoured Vehicles of the latest generation. It is in my view the fastest, most capable helicopter gunship of its time, extremely popular with ground troops because it is capable of landing and fighting from the ground just as effectively as from the air with unprecedented deadly results- its inability to hoover as a stationary fire-platform while being a drawback only to that extent, makes it extremely versatile and effective in a fast-flowing battlefield dominated by Armour and battlefield anti-Air Mobile Defense systems. Now, against Mortar and Arty emplacements, the devil is in real season!! Last thing you really want to spot on your battlefield horizon is the approaching hazy outline of a Hunter-Killer stick of two going-to eight of these monsters!!

As both an Utility and DAP player, this thing exponentially enhances our force-projection in unimaginable ways.

The MD500 will primarily slave to the SoF (recon, insertions / extractions, fire-support, etc) while the zw-9wg takes precedent in the Air-cavalry anti-amour / DAP / armed escort / some battle-field fire suppression / support roles primarily in the province of the Mi-35.

Last year, we had the largest most-deadly Anti-Tank Killer Force in this entire region. This year...and going forward...?

Discordant in the ranks gentlemen ehh? Its the first time a come across that issue that the Mi35 can’t hover. But last time around the ones in Kampala did hover. Check your training boys. But anyway seriously guys, maybe it’s just a western bad publicity on the gunship. I remember one that claimed the BMP-1 had the waste sitting arrangements of all IFV one could imagine. the BMP-1 is small that the troops seats were the fuel tanks and a simple incineration round would obliterate the entire platoon inside the IFV. This is just western bull shit and nonsense. Eastern bloc weapons are as good as their western counterparts.

the Mi-35 hovering at Kampala must have been in its clean mode. Not loaded

Ya I also agree on that flying crane. The BMP-1 and the T-72 were NATO.s most feared armor.

The T-72 were criticized for having the ammunition bin located in the turrets. And it was claimed that a single round will cock the ammunition bin starting a chain reaction ,killing the entire crew. But really which tank crew can survive an incoming round, once it has pieced the tank? eastern bloc ordnance have been victims of the western ill media euphoria I guess.

All in all the Mi35 meets our criterion of; operational cost, reliability and initial investment. It’s a lethal machine when given to the right hands.

@jas the j-10 and Fc-1 are dam good birds. I personal find the grippen very dull. I only admire the super cruise engine that it has. wacha wazee watafute silaha we will use them. Our job is to get the best out of them, what so ever the source is. I always tell the boys, our job entails taking aero planes and use it as a weapon for killing. Let that sink properly in your ethics you need to do that correctly and perfectly alone at 36,000 feet above sea level. we shall do that with whatever aircrafts our boss provide use with.

On the issue of the L-15. Modern jets (4th gen.) are piloted by a term referred to as FLY-BY -WIRE controls. the aircraft controls are done on an electronic interface. the L-15 will enhance fast jet pilots into electronics interface controls from the tradition Stick and Rudder controls learned in the bulldogs and tucanos. The feel is very different and tricky. Big muscles and chest don’t count

If it is true that the Ruskies refused the re-export of the RD-93, it was a poor foresight. They new the Chinese were working on the WS-13 and it was a matter of time before they could offer it on the FC-1. Yes, questions exist of reliability. The Russians were better off tryint to make the little they can from the FC-1 sales



I say "IF" because Klimov is already marketing the RD-93 as an FC-1 engine:

hey bullet man me and tempest are waiting? Klimov is indeed marketing the engine for the fc-1. your news is old school bullet man or your trying to divert an attention. Read the article below . 150 engines have actually been sold

http://www.domain-b.com/aero/20070427_putin.htm

so where did you get your info from.