Kenya Defence Force

Boy, when orders come from superior commands they have to be executed to the later just like the Kenya army would have done or any other armies when receiving orders from higher authorities

Whether such orders are morally correct or not the orders have to be followed and that is a plane and simple military Doctrine, and if your army doesn’t follow such a doctrine then you are in trouble boy, cause those are tell tale signs of a military mutiny. Stronger armies like Egypt and Algeria did the same against their citizens but niether the place nor the time for such a discussion. So lets leave Bysigyes case out of this. Kenya too has had its share of trouble with the oppositions.

The main reason you see me posting in this blog and not others is; in here we deal with hard military facts in the region and they is no politicking, something that most blogs don,t. many people don,t register here but rather stand , watch and read from a distance because they don,t have the ammo and capabilities to sustain such a detailed conversation. lets keep it that way and as close to the core and facts as possible pertaining military facts and matter. that is what distinguishes this board from other gossip type hip shot forums. So lets leave the question of morality and politicking

I haven’t ruled out other armies being stronger then UDPF in the continent, but against Kenya and in the region we are and so say the CIA sheet of facts whether you like it or not. As we speak and at the moment the Kenya Military is no match for the UPDF. There is no way incursions would be made in Kenya with impunity and no logical respond comes from your military. That’s the fundamental point as we stand at this day and time the Kenya army is at it weakest point it has ever been. UDPF might be rag tag as you say or poorly cloth and the Kenya army might have a nice, decorate uniform and good parades, but that’s all that you have. I stress it out here and again that in a confrontation and warfare you can,t beat the UPDF. So wachana na mambo ya uniforms shinny medals, staff cars and Officer mess that bull shit. We the UDPF might not have such amenities but when it come to war your no match to us. Sawa sawa kijana

We may have to agree-to-disagree on this score, Mr. Crane, as you seem to base your assetions on very diametrically different benchmarks. I would hazard to say you are un-informed and not knowledgeable on these matters you crow about, that is even assuming you are uniformed and serving in the UPDF. Well, I am paid and tasked to spend my days doing just this sort of Comparative Military Analysis and Iam confident I know the UPDF in all it’s facets as well as the next man, from my specific study of UPDF and personal / official contacts with elements of its Officer-Corps over the years, which certainly does not validate your assertions of it’s capacity and abilities, CIA rankings be dammed – their Criteria of Assessment was specifically narrow to respond to particular American concerns But there is always honour between men-of-war, as I am certain you recognise, hence my reluctance to splash muddy waters on you bro. Shall we then not allow comparative informative discourse to continue here?

@ Mr Crane,

You keep quoting the CIA rankings. However this is not the only source available to gauge military capability of a country. Many other sources exist and they use a different set of criteria to arrive at their conclusion which may not be necessarily correct nor are the CIA rankings. CIA for instance uses war experience as one of its criteria and this is the sole reason why UPDF is placed a head of Kenya indeed not by a wide margin anyway. This being because UPDF has been engaged for the last 20 years fighting the amorphous outfit of Joseph Kony's LRA and the incursion into DRC in 1998. Now, LRA is hardly the kind of the opposition that can guarantee you the confidence to take on another Nation's established military.
Credit be given though. Over the last few years UPDF has embarked on a modernization exercise buying new fighter jets, tanks, etc and is in the process of transforming itself from a poorly equipped mass army into a more professional well trained lean force similar to their Kenyan counterparts. However it has not reached the stage where it can threaten the Kenyan army. Hence when you allege that The Kenyan army comes nowhere close to the UPDF i fail to understand from where you get the argument. You argue that our territorial integrity is being violated with impunity without any response by the Kenyan army. The answer is simple. The violation has always been by militias and not by a foreign National army. The response therefore falls under the docket of the police and they have so far done a good job about it. It would be a different matter if this violation was from a foreign National army.Kenya is a peaceful state keen on promoting peace and trade with her neighbors. It is therefore unwise to engage in acts that might send the wrong signal to the neighbors by sending the army to the scene every time some militia or cattle rustlers cross our borders.That is not to be expected of a professional army anyway and you will soon realize the same when you complete your modernization process. On Uganda, Kenya is highly unlikely to go to war with this sister state and a major trading partner. Small disagreements on matters like Migingo/Ugingo will be dealt with diplomatically and war will be a last resort. This is why the authorities here have not responded with the same urgency as they have done with the merille incursion on the Kenya-Ethiopia border nor the Al shabbab on the Kenya-Somalia border where the Kenya army and the GSU have been stationed.

Olekoima

You seemed civilian from you comments. I wish you new the rot and demoralization that is inside those parade boys that you see in you nation day parade. I am more then ready to give you a true picture of what lays in the Kenya military if you wish so. We have credible informers that give us bit by bit second update of your DOD affairs.

Get the facts on the table
1. the CIA aren’t amateur or conducting a college hypothesis in military rankings. The standing are based on credentials that are international accepted and are not only bias or tunnel vision to the UDPF performance.
2. fight rebels dosn,t push you up the scale either. If that would be so then Pakistan and sri lanka will be well above India the region power. Get your fact right.

Stop being a blind patriot man. The most you gov,t will do is to hire thugs to uproot the railways at kibera and that again will eat into you economy.Your army is at its weakest as we speak and they are know signs of the graph taking an upwards turn.

By the way we have a gentleman from the SIPRI a research institute that is based on similar activities. Mr PW would care to share some knowledge on the CIA rankings.

Good. Now we are debating sensibly and this should be the case.
Fine, i agree with some aspects of your post. I know there has been some rot in our systems over the last few years with some people trying to enrich themselves at the expense of the national good and well being.I know too that some people have been trying to influence recruitment with a view to staffing the force with undeserving cases.Indeed some of the concerns you raise have already been subject to parliamentary debate on defense and National security.Corruption especially with regard to procurement is common in many developing countries and is not only limited to Kenya.You will recall that the same thing happened to the UPDF in the nineties with some fighter jets being delivered without wings and pots for bombs, undersize uniforms,malfunctioning T-55 tanks etc. All these notwithstanding, the Kenya army has not reached the point where it is to be taken for granted.The CIA rankings that you quote very often serve only as guidelines and we respect them as such. This is not to mean that the UPDF is a weak army. I know for instance that it is one of the strongest armies in central Africa according to Jane's defense weekly and we too respect it.It common practice for countries to spy on each other with a view to mapping their defense strategies in case of hostilities hence the information you have about the Kenya army. Kenya too have their data about your weak points. We are not at our weakest. We were weak in 1975 when Amin threatened to annex parts of Kenya up to Naivasha.
Separately Mr Crane, would the UPDF deploy every time our Pokots make incursions into your territory and clash with the Karamajong over pasture? Isn't this left to the police? For the same reasons we don't send the army to pursue Toposa, Merille or the Karamajong since this does not constitute violation of our sovereignty other than competition for pasture and livestock by neighboring communities.

Bro Olekoima - you ever heard of the saying ''pissing in the wind''? Anyway, some brave UPDF soldiers lost in Mogadisho last weekend, senior of them the OC 23Btn Lt. Col Patrick Tibihwa, Lt. Lawrence Tugume Cpl. Isabirye Abdalla and Pte. Augustine Kuloba - Tank battalion,. Not from direct contact but by opportunistic fire now prevalent in this senseless conflict in Mogadisho. My heart bleeds for these men. UPDF’s ARTY retaliatory shelling kills ten civilians, in residential areas from where these mortars were fired – reprehensible and retrogressive, in my view.

An OC is down that’s a big blow. No wonder the went on a killing spree.

mJESHI mMOJA wrote:An OC is down that’s a big blow. No wonder the went on a killing spree.

Yea man! Pat was a really switched on combat leader. Knew him from 'a distance'. And not just 23Btn O/C but also 2ndO/C UGABAG 6, to boot! I expect some very robust and disproportionate activity from the UPDF in the coming days. Just wish they would fight these thugs within established Armed Conflict Protocol,( and the options available ''In-Protocol'' to them are really endless) avoiding this needless collateral damage that only perpetuates this endless circle of violence.

Shemegi yani you are rejoicing such an event????

mzalendo wrote:Shemegi yani you are rejoicing such an event????

NO I AM MOST DEFINITELY NOT! I CANNOT, AND WILL NOT, I feel for their lose in every sense as if it were my own men lost, honestly!! And I am very sorry that I may have given any other impression! Damn!!

Hah! Could this be the reason why M7 threatened to pull out his troops if a proper mandate wasnt put in place? WoW i should stop looking at things in black and white

Trinitrotoluene wrote:Hah! Could this be the reason why M7 threatened to pull out his troops if a proper mandate wasnt put in place? WoW i should stop looking at things in black and white

I think the UGABAG deployment has taken a life of itself, not like it was probably envisaged by some interested western government. The French are feeling crowded out in Djibouti with the ''independent' M7 Muscles has in Mogadishu( another Brigade expected there any time soon). UGABAG is challenging existing geo-political realities very subtly but effectively - circulated intel indicate Eritrea is softening to some form of loose accommodation with Ethiopia within some IGAD framework, which may dislodge Djibouti from French Clutches soon after. The Abiyei Controversy seems to have failed to ignite Armed Conflict despite the Political War games going about it - it is a veritable geopolitical revolution seething in this wide mineral-rich Centre-of-Africa Mosaic, and UGABAG is certainly one of the central triggers to this. Exciting times these are!

Some of you will no doubt find the attached analysis table illuminated. A comparative analysis too of allocations to respective Militaries will in due course be availed. Intention is to invite discussion.

Country / 2012 Budget Ksh / 2012 Budget US Dollars / Population 2009 / % of Kenya Budget / 'Donors' -factor
Rwanda / Ksh. 155,659,866,000 / Usd 1,774,508,276 / 10,473,282 / 13.47% / 32.37%
Uganda / Ksh 358,187,158,000 / Usd 4,083,766,480 / 32,369,558 / 30.00% / 29.60%
Tanzania / Ksh 714,684,533,000 / Usd 8,147,338.497 / 41,048,532 / 61.85% / 33.1%
Kenya / Ksh 1,155,500,000,000 / Usd. 13,172,594,619 / 39,002,772 / 100% / 8.7%

Of course this is not conclusive as the details of allocation, revenue levels, target-consumption, etc are not contained here. But surely these figures, even by themselves, must indicate ''something'', I dare say!!

ole Nkarei wrote:Some of you will no doubt find the attached analysis table illuminated. A comparative analysis too of allocations to respective Militaries will in due course be availed. Intention is to invite discussion.

Country / 2012 Budget Ksh / 2012 Budget US Dollars / Population 2009 / % of Kenya Budget / 'Donors' -factor
Rwanda / Ksh. 155,659,866,000 / Usd 1,774,508,276 / 10,473,282 / 13.47% / 32.37%
Uganda / Ksh 358,187,158,000 / Usd 4,083,766,480 / 32,369,558 / 30.00% / 29.60%
Tanzania / Ksh 714,684,533,000 / Usd 8,147,338.497 / 41,048,532 / 61.85% / 33.1%
Kenya / Ksh 1,155,500,000,000 / Usd. 13,172,594,619 / 39,002,772 / 100% / 8.7%

Of course this is not conclusive as the details of allocation, revenue levels, target-consumption, etc are not contained here. But surely these figures, even by themselves, must indicate ''something'', I dare say!!

what you suggestion said in plane english

I should think there are some rather obvious inferences to be drawn from these figures, if one is not disputing their veracity, Flying Crane.
For Instances:-

That despite 2 Brigade-depth of Deployment in Somalia, Uganda projects a public expenditure cap in year 2012 to a ratio of 1:3 to Kenya's, and half of Tanzania's and twice that of Rwanda.And this is marked increase on last year’s GovUganda 2011 Public expenditure.

That globally (Recurrent and Development) GovUganda will spend roughly Kes.11,000/- per capita compared to Kes.16000/-by GovRwanda, Kes.17000/- by GovTanzania and Kes.30 000/- by GovKenya. If this ratio holds on developmental spending, well, the picture gets even more interesting.

While these are not specific figures to Military Allocations, they ARE declared Government Policy Statements that will govern such allocations amongst others. Probably you begin to see how improbably your assertion of the Military Leadership of UPDF in this region,eh?

Waiting, with bated breath, to see how FlyingCrane handles this one. A tad beyond his intellectual reach, methinks.

ole Nkarei wrote:Some of you will no doubt find the attached analysis table illuminated. A comparative analysis too of allocations to respective Militaries will in due course be availed. Intention is to invite discussion.

Country / 2012 Budget Ksh / 2012 Budget US Dollars / Population 2009 / % of Kenya Budget / 'Donors' -factor
Rwanda / Ksh. 155,659,866,000 / Usd 1,774,508,276 / 10,473,282 / 13.47% / 32.37%
Uganda / Ksh 358,187,158,000 / Usd 4,083,766,480 / 32,369,558 / 30.00% / 29.60%
Tanzania / Ksh 714,684,533,000 / Usd 8,147,338.497 / 41,048,532 / 61.85% / 33.1%
Kenya / Ksh 1,155,500,000,000 / Usd. 13,172,594,619 / 39,002,772 / 100% / 8.7%

Of course this is not conclusive as the details of allocation, revenue levels, target-consumption, etc are not contained here. But surely these figures, even by themselves, must indicate ''something'', I dare say!!

Vitruvian wrote:Waiting, with bated breath, to see how FlyingCrane handles this one. A tad beyond his intellectual reach, methinks.

ole Nkarei wrote:Some of you will no doubt find the attached analysis table illuminated. A comparative analysis too of allocations to respective Militaries will in due course be availed. Intention is to invite discussion.

Country / 2012 Budget Ksh / 2012 Budget US Dollars / Population 2009 / % of Kenya Budget / 'Donors' -factor
Rwanda / Ksh. 155,659,866,000 / Usd 1,774,508,276 / 10,473,282 / 13.47% / 32.37%
Uganda / Ksh 358,187,158,000 / Usd 4,083,766,480 / 32,369,558 / 30.00% / 29.60%
Tanzania / Ksh 714,684,533,000 / Usd 8,147,338.497 / 41,048,532 / 61.85% / 33.1%
Kenya / Ksh 1,155,500,000,000 / Usd. 13,172,594,619 / 39,002,772 / 100% / 8.7%

Of course this is not conclusive as the details of allocation, revenue levels, target-consumption, etc are not contained here. But surely these figures, even by themselves, must indicate ''something'', I dare say!

Those 6 SU30MKK a full QUARTER of projected public spending 2012. No wonder they raided the Consolidated Fund to procure those birds!! Rwanda could mobilise for general conflict ahead of Uganda in the event of Open Hostilities, from these figure, Vitruvian!! Damn!!

And to add on what has been written on Uganda and Rwanda, Kenyas top brass are going to get more fatter, From kick backs of your yearly spendings before their exit for retire in a few years to come.

These are just figures guys that are being issued on that Fiscal Year (FY). It all fall under long term and shot term investments servicing.
A country could be spending less in each fiscal year but has a larger loan which is being serviced for a long term and vise visa on high installments short terms loans. Not to mention 30% “kick backs” that might have inflated the deals.

Secondly they could be spot check procurements. You could decide to buy equipments and pay them in one shot rather the in installment, this will also reflect as a higher military spending in that year.
But actual on the ground you don,t have so much equipment procured. It all depends on how your treasury wants to foot its bills .So stop thumb chesting and don,t be so over confident with your budgets.

To add more to that; these are nothing more then statistics and have nothing to do with the quality and quanties that are going to be procured.
Show me your quality purchases and I will show you mine.
Second hand F-5, Tata Amoured personel carries against Su30 and new model T-72. does that satisfy your wimp Vitruvian?

I think it is quite apparent that the village elders chose your cousin as the only family member they could afford to send to college. There are many fora out there that might digest the level of intellect you are spewing here but this is not one of them. I really don't know how to respond to you. I'm not sure there's any point. Your sole achievement so far has been to erode the quality of this forum.
Allow me to remind you (sic):

Flying Crane wrote:I can see it has become an all Kenyan Blog full of Nairobi street urchins with their chokora languages from aka Sisal. I am official with drawing from the blog.

What brought you back? Show some character and mean what you say. Do us all a favour and invade Kenya. Please...

Flying Crane wrote:And to add on what has been written on Uganda and Rwanda, Kenyas top brass are going to get more fatter, From kick backs of your yearly spendings before their exit for retire in a few years to come.

These are just figures guys that are being issued on that Fiscal Year (FY). It all fall under long term and shot term investments servicing.
A country could be spending less in each fiscal year but has a larger loan which is being serviced for a long term and vise visa on high installments short terms loans. Not to mention 30% “kick backs” that might have inflated the deals.

Secondly they could be spot check procurements. You could decide to buy equipments and pay them in one shot rather the in installment, this will also reflect as a higher military spending in that year.
But actual on the ground you don,t have so much equipment procured. It all depends on how your treasury wants to foot its bills .So stop thumb chesting and don,t be so over confident with your budgets.

To add more to that; these are nothing more then statistics and have nothing to do with the quality and quanties that are going to be procured.
Show me your quality purchases and I will show you mine.
Second hand F-5, Tata Amoured personel carries against Su30 and new model T-72. does that satisfy your wimp Vitruvian?

@ Vitruvian
Lad just see where you lay in the list of men before you start issuing your silly directives on who should and should not post on the website.
FYI wake up we have already invaded Kenya.

https://eastafrican.forumotion.com/memberlist?mode=joined&order&submit=Ok&username

I have just learnt that more Zw-9 are due for delivery and the ones in the country are being armed with Chinese weaponlogy like the HJ-8 anti-tank missiles for ground attack and TY-90 air-to-air missiles for air defense.

My assumption and if I was wrong kindly correct me was that the military was going to buy Chinese platforms like helicopters, tanks and fighter but arm them with western weapons to balance out the low reliability offered by china weapons but this dosn,t seem to be it.
Surely brothers in uniform have we fully switched to Chinese arsenal like countries like Mozambique, Tanzania and Zambia? I fell we are above that league in all aspects.

Quality over quantity, FlyingCrane. They would have taught you that at college.

Flying Crane wrote:@ Vitruvian
Lad just see where you lay in the list of men before you start issuing your silly directives on who should and should not post on the website.
FYI wake up we have already invaded Kenya.

https://eastafrican.forumotion.com/memberlist?mode=joined&order&submit=Ok&username

@ Vitruvian Do you even understand what you write?
@ Sisal Makonge don,t forget to include that Tata APC in the list of silly programs of the kDOD

Sisal Makonge wrote:I have just learnt that more Zw-9 are due for delivery and the ones in the country are being armed with Chinese weaponlogy like the HJ-8 anti-tank missiles for ground attack and TY-90 air-to-air missiles for air defense.

My assumption and if I was wrong kindly correct me was that the military was going to buy Chinese platforms like helicopters, tanks and fighter but arm them with western weapons to balance out the low reliability offered by china weapons but this dosn,t seem to be it.
Surely brothers in uniform have we fully switched to Chinese arsenal like countries like Mozambique, Tanzania and Zambia? I fell we are above that league in all aspects.

Vitruvian – you will not win this one against the intellect of this fella. I surrendered, and am safer for it. Man speaks a language from space, only understood where he sprouted from. Leave him be, brother, the wise old adage on sleeping dogs goes, no??

Brother Makonge, your concerns have bedevilled a lot of us and found voluble expression in many for a I have attended on the subject. The gist of our procurement is to secure quality at the most affordable costs. But this balancing is really on a knife edge – but what is not disputable from our research is that Chinese military technology in some instances has either superceded available western technology, but in the most instances has caught up to par with the existing western technology. There is little doubt that on Research and Development, the Chinese are at par with the best in the West at present. Moreover because their R & R lines are shorter being mostly based on derivatives of existing Western & Russian Israeli Technology, combined with the lesser variable cost elements of production in China ( Power, labour, materiel, etc) this Chinese technology out-fights the similar western variants in the Market-place.

As long as one is not buying military equipment of the nineties and earlier, I reckon it safe make this transition. The Greatest Lie in the world is that all Western Military Technology still supersedes Chinese Military Technology. And Western Commercial engagements in Africa have greater benevolence than Chinese / Russian / Indian / Brazil - you may have heard Hilary Clinton bemoaning Africa’s embrace of the Chinese during the on-going COMESA Summit in South Africa?. It is a vicious rear-guard offensive they are waging against the eventual domination of the Armed Industry by the Chinese that is not far from a reality today. Rest easy, bra.

Is this the TATA apc that Flying has being noising about?


http://www.defencesolutions-tatamotors.com/tactical/mine-protected.html

if so I think its far better and modernized then the UPDF ones ama vipi Flying crane?

Fantastic rejoinder, Balozi!! indisputable!

I just have one question, how much did the UPDF get in this years budget vis-a-vis the KDoD?

jasiri wrote:I just have one question, how much did the UPDF get in this years budget vis-a-vis the KDoD?

I have grave doubts Flying Crane will favour you with these details, Jasiri, but not to worry, I have them, now finishing collation and will post a comparative chart just about anytime now. Trying to decipher the large-Units procurement to validate the figures, though.

But even from the ''Country-global'' budgetary figures, at one-quarter of Kenya's Budget and only 15% less population, surely one would have to be completely self-delusional to keep arguing this case of the superiority of the UDPF, by gawd!!

The SU30MKK have kinda ''broken the bank'', so to speak.

Those are our old stocks that we sent to Somalia on exit to for decommissioning. We have better ones. Much more better and proven ones then Tata.s. Your Kenya army has order 100 pcs of police like APC,s called M26 puma manufactured in the back street in south Africa. The workshop can’t manufacture engines hence use cheap tata engines to run the apc,s.

Caspier


and the

Reva.


@jasiri ikoshida gaini na UPDF budget vise vie Kenya? Might is not weight that way. Show me you thing I will show you mine and we see how has the better member.

Flying Crane wrote:And to add on what has been written on Uganda and Rwanda, Kenyas top brass are going to get more fatter, From kick backs of your yearly spendings before their exit for retire in a few years to come.

These are just figures guys that are being issued on that Fiscal Year (FY). It all fall under long term and shot term investments servicing.
A country could be spending less in each fiscal year but has a larger loan which is being serviced for a long term and vise visa on high installments short terms loans. Not to mention 30% “kick backs” that might have inflated the deals.

Secondly they could be spot check procurements. You could decide to buy equipments and pay them in one shot rather the in installment, this will also reflect as a higher military spending in that year.
But actual on the ground you don,t have so much equipment procured. It all depends on how your treasury wants to foot its bills .So stop thumb chesting and don,t be so over confident with your budgets.

To add more to that; these are nothing more then statistics and have nothing to do with the quality and quanties that are going to be procured.
Show me your quality purchases and I will show you mine.
Second hand F-5, Tata Amoured personel carries against Su30 and new model T-72. does that satisfy your wimp Vitruvian?

What's so new about the T-72 that has you jumin in excitement? the Kontakt 5? I bet your armoured corps won't even be able to maintain the ERA's. If you wan't to intimidate the armoured corps, buy the T-90's otherwise the T-72's are still foder for our TOW equipped MD-500's n now (sorry) the HJ-8 equipped Z-9W's. This integration thingy(which am squarelly opposed to) will surelly save your rumps.