Re: Uganda Peoples Defence Force (UPDF),

mogen Thu Aug 16 2012, 06:11

countersniper wrote:It seems these Ugandan crews thought they are being very smart.
they got permission to fly through Kenya and without asking for escort of safe passage decided to use their alleged knowledge of Kenya..with disastrous consequences
it seems KDF was happy to avoid them using their facilities..and therefore not compromising their secrets.

i am stunned that they landed in a field in sirisia? is that true ?and not ELDORET airport itself?
how come no civilians reported seeing any strange aircraft's ?no pictures?so even the one that landed in garrisa was at an open airfield and not KDF facility ?
i can now see why the theory of radio silence comes in
these guys wanted to sneak past Kenya airspace and get to somalia ..but the gamble did not payoff.

@C.Sniper
It is possible that they would have declined KDF escort. Indeed, the planning and execution of the UPDF Air Asset transit operation lacked the necessary military finesse. 4 Large loaded military choppers, 28 men, travelling 1000km with no emergency beacons, flares, comms. They preferred to land and refuel at civilian facilities (although KDF facilities were nearby). Then they encounter adverse conditions and the lead pilot, with a better machine - the mil 17) manages to get through but doesn't seem to care about members of his formation who were in aircrafts that lacked the capabilities of his mil17. Phew! He proceeds to land and refuel at a civilian airstrip in Garissa and then heads to Somalia as if nothing important happened to his colleagues. That soldier needs to answer some hard questions. What the hell was going on in his mind? After making it through the treacherous mountain conditions he couldn't attempt to contact his teammates or even alert base that he has lost contact with the rest of his team. What a leader!!

http://standardmedia.co.ke/?articleID=2000064074&story_title=The-hard-questions-on-Uganda-crashes

Spartan Thu Aug 16 2012, 09:51

So it's gotten really partisan. Where will the additional attack choppers come from now? KDF was supposed to have more choppers - or so I was led to believe. We (E.A armies) have been laid bare, gentlemen. For the D-Day to be pushed forward because one of the members contributing lost three attack choppers, what does that say about the region? That's the big picture.

cylon Thu Aug 16 2012, 10:01

Spartan wrote:So it's gotten really partisan. Where will the additional attack choppers come from now? KDF was supposed to have more choppers - or so I was led to believe. We (E.A armies) have been laid bare, gentlemen. For the D-Day to be pushed forward because one of the members contributing lost three attack choppers, what does that say about the region? That's the big picture.

Spartan i could say that ETAF(Ethiopian Airforce) will be supply Amisom with some Hinds

countersniper Thu Aug 16 2012, 10:03

Spartan wrote:So it's gotten really partisan. Where will the additional attack choppers come from now? KDF was supposed to have more choppers - or so I was led to believe. We (E.A armies) have been laid bare, gentlemen. For the D-Day to be pushed forward because one of the members contributing lost three attack choppers, what does that say about the region? That's the big picture.

brother thanks for coming back..i was worried about you.
KDF has enough choppers operating in its sector and maybe Ethiopia will fill the gap. that's for sure..but problem is the AMISOM/AU/ UNSC which has deliberately set a low budget for the missions fewer choppers is to blame.
they should provide more money and flexibility.
it is as though the mission was designed to fail. ..me thinks the main principles need to declare total war on this send in their assets without limitations and then sort out the costs later.

Nesta Thu Aug 16 2012, 10:55

Spartan wrote:So it's gotten really partisan. Where will the additional attack choppers come from now? KDF was supposed to have more choppers - or so I was led to believe. We (E.A armies) have been laid bare, gentlemen. For the D-Day to be pushed forward because one of the members contributing lost three attack choppers, what does that say about the region? That's the big picture.

Thanks; you're welcome back. I think being partisan/defensive is something that will come out definitely in these debates. But I believe that both of us and all of us in this forum can come to an agreement on one thing: that we can learn from this. The best respect that we can give to the fallen soldiers is to make sure that both armies (KDF and UPDF) treat this accident with the seriousness it deserves.But if we play politics with this thing and tried to cover our backs are bound to repeat these mistakes.

countersniper Thu Aug 16 2012, 11:00

if i was in charge of the investigation
i would re-create the exact flying simulation from the last stop at nanyuki using the mi17 and fly same route and same exact altitude and see what could have gone wrong.
probably ask the same pilot who made it across to simulate the flight.

mwepesi Thu Aug 16 2012, 11:37

Spartan wrote:So it's gotten really partisan.

I beg to differ, These things are not cast in stone (I know you know that) BTW I think you got serious issues in your own backyard, I was just reading this article in New Vision

http://www.newvision.co.ug/news/634099-eight-survive-army-helicopter-crash-two-dead.html

Basically my interest was not the article itself but the comments though i read it to get the context. From all those comments by the readers I think you people have a some PR issues you need to sort out fast. those small outbursts could go viral if not checked.

quick stats on those comments in a scale of 1 to 10 i give 9 as -ve.

Crane your take on that.

countersniper Thu Aug 16 2012, 12:03

mwepesi wrote:
Spartan wrote:So it's gotten really partisan.

I beg to differ, These things are not cast in stone (I know you know that) BTW I think you got serious issues in your own backyard, I was just reading this article in New Vision

http://www.newvision.co.ug/news/634099-eight-survive-army-helicopter-crash-two-dead.html

Basically my interest was not the article itself but the comments though i read it to get the context. From all those comments by the readers I think you people have a some PR issues you need to sort out fast. those small outbursts could go viral if not checked.

quick stats on those comments in a scale of 1 to 10 i give 9 as -ve.

Crane your take on that.

most of those comments are critical to the Ugandans .. a few crazed ones are blaming KDF.
I can safely summarize that the equipment was used beyond its operational endurance by a crew who flew into mountain ranges blindly.
Those particular mi24 were not suited to operate at high altitude mountain range. .so making them fly over mount Kenya was mission impossible.their maximum reach is 4500 meters above sea level.
Ask the mi 17 pilot how he made it across...his helicopter was more capable because it was designed to fly up 6000 meters above sea level. mount Kenya is 5199 meters above sea level.
this where your investigators should focus.

one more thing can someone tell me what those topic air choppers are and type?make? etc
how come they are gliding in and out of the area where top of the range military type gunships and others are avoiding like the KDF mighty puma ? i heard the topic air pilot say the puma was too big to land up there..so maybe this is part of the answer...so why cant KDF use its gazelle type small chopper ? or one of the MD 500.?

Olekoima Thu Aug 16 2012, 12:52

Spartan wrote:So it's gotten really partisan. Where will the additional attack choppers come from now? KDF was supposed to have more choppers - or so I was led to believe. We (E.A armies) have been laid bare, gentlemen. For the D-Day to be pushed forward because one of the members contributing lost three attack choppers, what does that say about the region? That's the big picture.

Welcome back. I think the roles were divided such that UPDF was to be in charge of the air attack and KDF the naval attack. All were to do the ground assault i.e Uganda, Burundi, Kenya and Ethiopia. This has nothing to do with KDF not having enough choppers. I believe this will be sorted now that commanders are back to the drawing boards in Nairobi following the crash.

mwepesi Thu Aug 16 2012, 12:57

countersniper wrote:
most of those comments are critical to the Ugandans .. a few crazed ones are blaming KDF.
I can safely summarize that the equipment was used beyond its operational endurance by a crew who flew into mountain ranges blindly.
Those particular mi24 were not suited to operate at high altitude mountain range. .so making them fly over mount Kenya was mission impossible.their maximum reach is 4500 meters above sea level.
Ask the mi 17 pilot how he made it across...his helicopter was more capable because it was designed to fly up 6000 meters above sea level. mount Kenya is 5199 meters above sea level.
this where your investigators should focus.

@ Countersniper I have PM you some tots.

Spartan Thu Aug 16 2012, 13:07

When life throws lemons at you, you make lemonade, so goes a famous saying. When you want to have a party, you look for the one life dealt vodka and have a blast, some cheeky fellow added. Why is it hard for us to use our different capabilities already in Somalia?

Choppers would have been more useful when columns of the enemy were leaving Mombasa, Afmadow, Afgoye etc and needed 'softening'. After all there are three transport/medvac choppers at the disposal of AMISOM now in Sector 1 alone. And the AS now have their backs to the ~~wall~~ water. Laughing

. I say surround them and get this over with.

@ Olekoima, what I meant is that before we look elsewhere outside EA for choppers, KDF clearly has attack choppers that can do the ground assault. Hopefully there will be a realignment of the roles now.

mogen Thu Aug 16 2012, 13:07

countersniper wrote:
mwepesi wrote:
Spartan wrote:So it's gotten really partisan.

I beg to differ, These things are not cast in stone (I know you know that) BTW I think you got serious issues in your own backyard, I was just reading this article in New Vision

http://www.newvision.co.ug/news/634099-eight-survive-army-helicopter-crash-two-dead.html

Basically my interest was not the article itself but the comments though i read it to get the context. From all those comments by the readers I think you people have a some PR issues you need to sort out fast. those small outbursts could go viral if not checked.

quick stats on those comments in a scale of 1 to 10 i give 9 as -ve.

Crane your take on that.
I heard the topic air pilot say the puma was too big to land up there..so maybe this is part of the answer...so why cant KDF use its gazelle type small chopper ? or one of the MD 500.?

@Countersniper
Exactly, my question too. Why can't KDF use some of its MD500s? Remember the civilian MD500 that landed in someone's veggie garden. It is that small and powerful. Can't see why it couldn't land where the longer-tailed Tropic Air chopper was able to land.

I read somewhere that the UPDF had nominated Tropic Air as the Liaison in Nanyuki. Would that be the reason for the private company's role?

countersniper Thu Aug 16 2012, 13:41

this explains why tropic air knew first hand that the choppers were down..and then rushed to bring in aljazeera news crew to film the first footage and pictures of the crash site.
who owns tropic air?

Guest Thu Aug 16 2012, 13:50

Spartan wrote:When life throws lemons at you, you make lemonade, so goes a famous saying. When you want to have a party, you look for the one life dealt vodka and have a blast, some cheeky fellow added. Why is it hard for us to use our different capabilities already in Somalia?

Choppers would have been more useful when columns of the enemy were leaving Mombasa, Afmadow, Afgoye etc and needed 'softening'. After all there are three transport/medvac choppers at the disposal of AMISOM now in Sector 1 alone. And the AS now have their backs to the ~~wall~~ water. . I say surround them and get this over with.

@ Olekoima, what I meant is that before we look elsewhere outside EA for choppers, KDF clearly has attack choppers that can do the ground assault. Hopefully there will be a realignment of the roles now.

@Spartan, sure KDF has enough choppers to cater for this type of engagement. I think the matter here has more to do with coordination within AMISOM than simply choppers to be used in a mission. AMISOM seems to me to be a consensus building command center where interests of participating armies are priotitized over actual battle-field requirements.If this was a purely KDF, or Ethipian army/ UG army desicion, i'm sure its commanders wouldn't risk weary mi-24s into a battlefield with an expectant enemy.Its better to risk a purely ground offensive instead. Such choppers will be recquired to perform outstanding manouvers and their tired systems would simply give way...as witnessed in the weather challenge they faced over Mt. Kenya. I mean, they seemed to just fall from the sky!Systems malfunction is clearly a most probable cause.

Back to AMISOM decision making. Postponement of the attack schedule is the best way forward - for a consensus led millitary command. Its not a weakness. KDF wouldn't be wise to rush its air cavalry to fill-in the gap opened by the missing UGAF Mi-24s. Obviously, it would spell suspicion for the member states in the AMISOM round-table high command. That applies to Ethiopia army rushing-in choppers. So they all need to meet in Nairobi as is happening and discuss various proposals. Remember, these proposals of way forward shall/ would also include issues such as investigations of the downed choppers....as in, what does AMISOM policy regulation stipulate in such situations? Which country leads such investigations, whom do they report to, should there be a multi african investigations team as opposed to a UG and KDF team? etc

I support planning rather than 'seizing the day!'It ensures that men live to fight another day.

countersniper Thu Aug 16 2012, 14:00

Depha wrote:
Spartan wrote:When life throws lemons at you, you make lemonade, so goes a famous saying. When you want to have a party, you look for the one life dealt vodka and have a blast, some cheeky fellow added. Why is it hard for us to use our different capabilities already in Somalia?

Choppers would have been more useful when columns of the enemy were leaving Mombasa, Afmadow, Afgoye etc and needed 'softening'. After all there are three transport/medvac choppers at the disposal of AMISOM now in Sector 1 alone. And the AS now have their backs to the ~~wall~~ water. . I say surround them and get this over with.

@ Olekoima, what I meant is that before we look elsewhere outside EA for choppers, KDF clearly has attack choppers that can do the ground assault. Hopefully there will be a realignment of the roles now.

@Spartan, sure KDF has enough choppers to cater for this type of engagement. I think the matter here has more to do with coordination within AMISOM than simply choppers to be used in a mission. AMISOM seems to me to be a consensus building command center where interests of participating armies are priotitized over actual battle-field requirements.If this was a purely KDF, or Ethipian army/ UG army desicion, i'm sure its commanders wouldn't risk weary mi-24s into a battlefield with an expectant enemy.Its better to risk a purely ground offensive instead. Such choppers will be recquired to perform outstanding manouvers and their tired systems would simply give way...as witnessed in the weather challenge they faced over Mt. Kenya. I mean, they seemed to just fall from the sky!Systems malfunction is clearly a most probable cause.

Back to AMISOM decision making. Postponement of the attack schedule is the best way forward - for a consensus led millitary command. Its not a weakness. KDF wouldn't be wise to rush its air cavalry to fill-in the gap opened by the missing UGAF Mi-24s. Obviously, it would spell suspicion for the member states in the AMISOM round-table high command. That applies to Ethiopia army rushing-in choppers. So they all need to meet in Nairobi as is happening and discuss various proposals. Remember, these proposals of way forward shall/ would also include issues such as investigations of the downed choppers....as in, what does AMISOM policy regulation stipulate in such situations? Which country leads such investigations, whom do they report to, should there be a multi african investigations team as opposed to a UG and KDF team? etc

I support planning rather than 'seizing the day!'It ensures that men live to fight another day.

those planes came down on Kenyan soil ..the rules or the law stipulate that Kenya should be the lead investigator.
i also think that UPDF did not have the experience to use those gunships in a saturated war situation.
it was wrong to expect them to perform while largely untested.

Spartan Thu Aug 16 2012, 14:46

countersniper wrote:I also think that UPDF did not have the experience to use those gunships in a saturated war situation. It was wrong to expect them to perform while largely untested.

You are dead wrong, bro. UPDF has the most experience operating Russian gunships in this region, to the point that we have grannies who have decades-long experience flying and fighting with them.

That's why those W0IIs rescued looked well over fifty. At first I also thought it was the 2007 group of pilots that went with them, but it is the experienced ones.

Noticed too that you've been sniping with reckless abandon lately. Anything in particular you want to put across?

countersniper Thu Aug 16 2012, 15:02

Spartan wrote:
countersniper wrote:I also think that UPDF did not have the experience to use those gunships in a saturated war situation. It was wrong to expect them to perform while largely untested.

You are dead wrong, bro. UPDF has the most experience operating Russian gunships in this region, to the point that we have grannies who have decades-long experience flying and fighting with them.

That's why those W0IIs rescued looked well over fifty. At first I also thought it was the 2007 group of pilots that went with them, but it is the experienced ones.

Noticed too that you've been sniping with reckless abandon lately. Anything in particular you want to put across?

spartan
no harm meant am a friend just concerned that our brothers could have easily lost 28 good men
but it seems you have failed to notice that the grandma you are referring to in your link says that the report claiming that she is a pilot was wrong..your grandma in UPDF herself has tried to correct this...
here is an extract of her answer...think before you leap my brother Very Happy

...and i do not want to rub it in but don't you think these high profile military helicopter crashes are in themselves a negative indictment of your so called experience in these matters?what really happened to john garangs chopper?

Rebecca • a month ago
It
is high time I corrected the facts which the New Vision published. I
have tried to get them to publish the correction but to no avail. If
you read the article, there is no where it says that I was a pilot, and I
wonder where they got the pilot issue. I have 30 hrs of flight on a
Cessna 172, but I cannot claim to be a pilot. Instead I am a licensed
aircraft maintenance engineer with 'X' Electrical. I have also rated
with some military aircraft especially helicopters. Before I became the
Director Women Affairs, I was the Deputy Chief Engineer in the Uganda
Airforce (Uganda Peoples' Defence Airforce). Some people take it for
granted that if you can maintain an aircraft, you can even fly, which is
not the case. New Vision should publish what it has been told and also
what is right.

mogen Thu Aug 16 2012, 15:05

countersniper wrote:this explains why tropic air knew first hand that the choppers were down..and then rushed to bring in aljazeera news crew to film the first footage and pictures of the crash site.
who owns tropic air?

@Countersniper
Tropic Air is owned by a Mr Jamie Roberts whose parents settled in Kenya in the 1920s. He started Tropic Air (http://www.tropicairkenya.com/) in the mid 1990s and prior to that he worked for the KWS and Lewa Conservancy. Ben Simpson is his chief pilot. Their choppers are mostlly Eurocopters which are no doubt longer than the MD500. They are no doubt very experienced pilots and ply the entire Kenyana region. From DRC to Ethiopia

Guest Thu Aug 16 2012, 15:13

A joint-Amisom assault of Kismayu is not indicative of the inability / lack of will of KDF and its political oversight to effectively take Kismayu by itself. Also erroneous that the Hinds are irreplaceable components of the Assault - KDF has the largest Aerial-platformed Anti-Tank Force in Kenyana including the vaunted ENDF. KDF's level and proficiency of interface, at Command, Formation and Unit levels, of the Air Calv, Ground Forces of various designation including Tactical Field Arty, Recce & Intel Elements, Armored Elements, SOCOM, and the KDF/AF, is unquestionably unsurpassed and incomparable in Kenyana. KDF/Political Oversight is as near-ideal as it can get.

Al-Kebaab can only postpone their inevitable demise as a Armed Political player in Zoomaliya - I hazard to say even excluding the KDF/Army, a well-led RDU/AP & GUS supported by KDF/Intel, some KDF/Armour, some AirCalv, some KDF/AF,some KDF/Navy would be sufficient to rout these bandits out of Kismayu without too much sweat and great loss.

But for the Political process to gel in Zoomaliya and support reconstruction post AS, the closure of this Engagement must of needs have a political face driving the Military Assault of Kismayu - hence the Joint AMISOM Operations vide Kismayu.

Although AU/UNSC authorized only 9 Utility and 3 Combat Choppers, KDF would still have continued deployment of the 50th Bat regardless - particularly that it is so integrated into the Operations of SOCOM. With or without the UPDF/AF Mi-24s.

countersniper Thu Aug 16 2012, 15:27

ole Nkarei wrote:A joint-Amisom assault of Kismayu is not indicative of the inability / lack of will of KDF and its political oversight to effectively take Kismayu by itself. Also erroneous that the Hinds are irreplaceable components of the Assault - KDF has the largest Aerial-platformed Anti-Tank Force in Kenyana including the vaunted ENDF. KDF's level and proficiency of interface, at Command, Formation and Unit levels, of the Air Calv, Ground Forces of various designation including Tactical Field Arty, Recce & Intel Elements, Armored Elements, SOCOM, and the KDF/AF, is unquestionably unsurpassed and incomparable in Kenyana. KDF/Political Oversight is as near-ideal as it can get.

Al-Kebaab can only postpone their inevitable demise as a Armed Political player in Zoomaliya - I hazard to say even excluding the KDF/Army, a well-led RDU/AP & GUS supported by KDF/Intel, some KDF/Armour, some AirCalv, some KDF/AF,some KDF/Navy would be sufficient to rout these bandits out of Kismayu without too much sweat and great loss.

But for the Political process to gel in Zoomaliya and support reconstruction post AS, the closure of this Engagement must of needs have a political face driving the Military Assault of Kismayu - hence the Joint AMISOM Operations vide Kismayu.

Although AU/UNSC authorized only 9 Utility and 3 Combat Choppers, KDF would still have continued deployment of the 50th Bat regardless - particularly that it is so integrated into the Operations of SOCOM. With or without the UPDF/AF Mi-24s.

these guys are spending too much time meeting and planning while the enemy digs in and waits..don't you agree at least? bwana ata wewe unajua when you over roast meat it becomes tasteless or unchewable....or if you eat over roasted meat you run the risk of diarrhea.. Very Happy

let the chiefs give the order...vijana wafanye kazi babaaaa Very Happy

..

mogen Thu Aug 16 2012, 15:41

countersniper wrote:
ole Nkarei wrote:A joint-Amisom assault of Kismayu is not indicative of the inability / lack of will of KDF and its political oversight to effectively take Kismayu by itself. Also erroneous that the Hinds are irreplaceable components of the Assault - KDF has the largest Aerial-platformed Anti-Tank Force in Kenyana including the vaunted ENDF. KDF's level and proficiency of interface, at Command, Formation and Unit levels, of the Air Calv, Ground Forces of various designation including Tactical Field Arty, Recce & Intel Elements, Armored Elements, SOCOM, and the KDF/AF, is unquestionably unsurpassed and incomparable in Kenyana. KDF/Political Oversight is as near-ideal as it can get.

Al-Kebaab can only postpone their inevitable demise as a Armed Political player in Zoomaliya - I hazard to say even excluding the KDF/Army, a well-led RDU/AP & GUS supported by KDF/Intel, some KDF/Armour, some AirCalv, some KDF/AF,some KDF/Navy would be sufficient to rout these bandits out of Kismayu without too much sweat and great loss.

But for the Political process to gel in Zoomaliya and support reconstruction post AS, the closure of this Engagement must of needs have a political face driving the Military Assault of Kismayu - hence the Joint AMISOM Operations vide Kismayu.

Although AU/UNSC authorized only 9 Utility and 3 Combat Choppers, KDF would still have continued deployment of the 50th Bat regardless - particularly that it is so integrated into the Operations of SOCOM. With or without the UPDF/AF Mi-24s.

these guys are spending too much time meeting and planning while the enemy digs in and waits..don't you agree at least? bwana ata wewe unajua when you over roast meat it becomes tasteless or unchewable....or if you eat over roasted meat you run the risk of diarrhea..

let the chiefs give the order...vijana wafanye kazi babaaaa ..

Haiya!! @Countersniper. Mbona? Wewe hujasikia...? Are you the only man in Jerusalem who has not...?

Guest Thu Aug 16 2012, 15:42

Tis going to be an incredibly difficult undertaking, because a convergence of each Nation's intentions / inquiry outcome may not be reached. And in both Uganda and Kenya the need-to-know will have different determining parameters - does anyone imagine Gen. Saleh was selected by M7 to oversee a ''who-done-it'' public lynching of his Government? Or that Kenya will not seek to deflect odium if possible?

The best we can all expect of this horrid disaster are vital life-giving lessons that we shall choose to assimilate or ignore. Cool

@C.sniper - Hehehe!! At the middle and younger command-levels, you certainly have many kindred with similar views, bro. Just get this damn thing over with. But you say this aloud at your own peril!! Particularly bad because we know we don't need AMISOM tripping on our shoe-laces to sort these bastards out. I know you too know how difficult it is to keep order in a motivated fighting idling group of Soldiers!

Spartan Thu Aug 16 2012, 15:49

ole Nkarei wrote:Although AU/UNSC authorized only 9 Utility and 3 Combat Choppers, KDF would still have continued deployment of the 50th Bat regardless - particularly that it is so integrated into the Operations of SOCOM. With or without the UPDF/AF Mi-24s.

That's the right attitude. This is our neighbourhood, and Kenya's backyard. A lot depends on whether the Som baby crawl and then stand on its own.

@Countersniper, we are on the same page then, ama?

countersniper Thu Aug 16 2012, 15:54

Spartan wrote:
ole Nkarei wrote:Although AU/UNSC authorized only 9 Utility and 3 Combat Choppers, KDF would still have continued deployment of the 50th Bat regardless - particularly that it is so integrated into the Operations of SOCOM. With or without the UPDF/AF Mi-24s.

That's the right attitude. This is our neighbourhood, and Kenya's backyard. A lot depends on whether the Som baby crawl and then stand on its own.

@Countersniper, we are on the same page then, ama?

we are on the same page. i have many fond memories of my time prowling the busia,kampala,masaka,mbarara,kabale kigali routes.
i suspect i may have left a few seeds in/of my likeliness there now probably they are in early teens.. i swear..by the way that night club used to be called ANGENOIR? in Kampala does it still exist..?

Guest Thu Aug 16 2012, 16:32

[quote="countersniper"]

ole Nkarei wrote:A joint-Amisom assault of Kismayu is not indicative of the inability / lack of will of KDF and its political oversight to effectively take Kismayu by itself. Also erroneous that the Hinds are irreplaceable components of the Assault - KDF has the largest Aerial-platformed Anti-Tank Force in Kenyana including the vaunted ENDF. KDF's level and proficiency of interface, at Command, Formation and Unit levels, of the Air Calv, Ground Forces of various designation including Tactical Field Arty, Recce & Intel Elements, Armored Elements, SOCOM, and the KDF/AF, is unquestionably unsurpassed and incomparable in Kenyana. KDF/Political Oversight is as near-ideal as it can get.

these guys are spending too much time meeting and planning while the enemy digs in and waits..don't you agree at least? bwana ata wewe unajua when you over roast meat it becomes tasteless or unchewable....or if you eat over roasted meat you run the risk of diarrhea..

let the chiefs give the order...vijana wafanye kazi babaaaa ..

@countersniper, Have you seen when a criminal is sentenced to death then two years later, a dude is still waiting to be hang!?Yeah,that's what it should be feeling for the AS....btw deathrow dudes never appeal for the speedy execution of their sentence..know why?

I bet its for the same reason AS is not appealing for the speedy onslaught of the KDF-led AMISOM offensive in Kismayu!lol

Olekoima Thu Aug 16 2012, 18:19

Depha wrote:
Spartan wrote:When life throws lemons at you, you make lemonade, so goes a famous saying. When you want to have a party, you look for the one life dealt vodka and have a blast, some cheeky fellow added. Why is it hard for us to use our different capabilities already in Somalia?

Choppers would have been more useful when columns of the enemy were leaving Mombasa, Afmadow, Afgoye etc and needed 'softening'. After all there are three transport/medvac choppers at the disposal of AMISOM now in Sector 1 alone. And the AS now have their backs to the ~~wall~~ water. . I say surround them and get this over with.

@ Olekoima, what I meant is that before we look elsewhere outside EA for choppers, KDF clearly has attack choppers that can do the ground assault. Hopefully there will be a realignment of the roles now.

@Spartan, sure KDF has enough choppers to cater for this type of engagement. I think the matter here has more to do with coordination within AMISOM than simply choppers to be used in a mission. AMISOM seems to me to be a consensus building command center where interests of participating armies are priotitized over actual battle-field requirements.If this was a purely KDF, or Ethipian army/ UG army desicion, i'm sure its commanders wouldn't risk weary mi-24s into a battlefield with an expectant enemy.Its better to risk a purely ground offensive instead. Such choppers will be recquired to perform outstanding manouvers and their tired systems would simply give way...as witnessed in the weather challenge they faced over Mt. Kenya. I mean, they seemed to just fall from the sky!Systems malfunction is clearly a most probable cause.

Back to AMISOM decision making. Postponement of the attack schedule is the best way forward - for a consensus led millitary command. Its not a weakness. KDF wouldn't be wise to rush its air cavalry to fill-in the gap opened by the missing UGAF Mi-24s. Obviously, it would spell suspicion for the member states in the AMISOM round-table high command. That applies to Ethiopia army rushing-in choppers. So they all need to meet in Nairobi as is happening and discuss various proposals. Remember, these proposals of way forward shall/ would also include issues such as investigations of the downed choppers....as in, what does AMISOM policy regulation stipulate in such situations? Which country leads such investigations, whom do they report to, should there be a multi african investigations team as opposed to a UG and KDF team? etc

I support planning rather than 'seizing the day!'It ensures that men live to fight another day.

I concur with you in this @ Depher.

countersniper Thu Aug 16 2012, 18:35

as we stall and wait...
these guys will keep regrouping and attacking.1000 tried to overrun KDF position ...
this waiting and waiting is no longer productive.

http://www.capitalfm.co.ke/news/2012/08/73-shabaab-killed-kdf-suffers-2-fatalities-in-somalia/

Nesta Thu Aug 16 2012, 19:40

NAIROBI, Kenya, Aug 16 – A search and rescue operation for
four missing Ugandan soldiers ended in Mount Kenya on Thursday after
their charred remains were found next to the wreckage of their burnt
helicopter.
The bodies were found at the site on Thursday afternoon
raising to the number of bodies found since Sunday when the helicopter
crashed and caught fire to seven.

www.capitalfm.co.ke/news/2012/08/kenya-to-probe-why-uganda-choppers-crashed/

Guest Thu Aug 16 2012, 21:28

[quote="countersniper"]as we stall and wait...
these guys will keep regrouping and attacking.1000 tried to overrun KDF position ...
this waiting and waiting is no longer productive.

@countersniper: Indeed AS are truly acting desperate. KDF and entire AMISOM should be on highest level of alertness at this time. Both in fob and at home.Its a test of true grits...who'll be first to loose their cool! This is were discipline matters most....because both sides am sure are feeling the pressure of the defeaning silence of inaction. Indisciplined forces will resort to putting pressure on their commanders, akin what Israel's troops under King Saul did when the were facing-off with the Philistine army. King Saul became so frantic untill he usurped prophet Samuel's role.

..the disciplined force will carry the day!

Olekoima Fri Aug 17 2012, 08:34

All now accounted for. Rescue operation then called off:-

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/more+bodies+found+from+Mount+Kenya+military+helicopter+crash+killed/7100917/story.html

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