Uganda Peoples Defence Force (UPDF),

Sierra Kilo wrote: About the Kismayu tea, i think with the weakened AS the air support that was to be provided by the hinds would not have been that be effective anyway. What needs to be harnessed is a massive Naval and ground assault to dismantle the AS as a fighting force then whatever of it that will mutate to terror cells be dealt with by SNA or the friendly millitias.

At present the AS still exert substantial influence of most of Zoomaliya to varying degrees, and just taking Kismayu while the rests remains under the AS will not make any political and military sense at all. We need to break the AS conclusively as a military player in Zoomaliya politics. Remember (1)the TFG is constitutionally ''dead'' on Monday 20th August and (2)AS is in more places in Zoomaliya than in Kismayu alone. Consider the entire Theatre of War from Beledweyne-to-Baidon-to-Crazy town-Marka-to-Kismayu -

a. UGABAG staging from Algoye breaks out in-force against Marka and onwards into all of Lower Shabelle Valley;

b. while the FAB (Burundi Army Group) fan out into Baidoa onto all of Bay (and for this those Gunships were needed in Zoomaliya and not for Kismayu); at the same time as the

c. KDF assaults Kismayu from Land,Air and Sea (and within Kismayu) and the follows through to Jibill; as well as through to Luq, Busaar and Garbaharey and into all Gedo; while the

d. ENDF brieksreigs through to Beledweyne and onto all of Hiraan; and through to Xandur and Wajid and all of Bakool.

In one coordinated and synchronised large-scale movement-by-force, this Zoomaliya Theatre closes, and like @ Sierra Kilo says ''the Al-Kebab mutates to terror cells be dealt with by SNA or the friendly millitias''

So - Kismayu is just one of the many theatre-activities scheduled in coordination and synchronization. Al-Kebab, you reading this, eh??

Hiyo tuu!!

why were the bodies of the fallen airmen from Uganda transported in a civilian plane (5Y-HAJ Hawker Siddelley 748 air services) instead of the KDF-AF?

jasiri wrote:why were the bodies of the fallen airmen from Uganda transported in a civilian plane (5Y-HAJ Hawker Siddelley 748 air services) instead of the KDF-AF?

i suppose this was a purposely a Ugandan government operation through its embassy and military attache in Nairobi. nothing to do with kdf..because it is the primary function of the Uganda government to repatriate the bodies of its dead citizens..once the recovery efforts face was over.
They could have sent a military plane from Uganda .but i think in the circumstances it makes sense to charter a plane from Nairobi to deliver the bodies.

countersniper wrote:

jasiri wrote:why were the bodies of the fallen airmen from Uganda transported in a civilian plane (5Y-HAJ Hawker Siddelley 748 air services) instead of the KDF-AF?

i suppose this was a purposely a Ugandan government operation through its embassy and military attache in Nairobi. nothing to do with kdf..because it is the primary function of the Uganda government to repatriate the bodies of its dead citizens..once the recovery efforts face was over.
They could have sent a military plane from Uganda .but i think in the circumstances it makes sense to charter a plane from Nairobi to deliver the bodies.

Kenya and KDF have done enough already. We are very thankful to all who put in long hours and risked their own lives flying to and landing on that treacherous mountain to rescue the distressed and recover the fallen.

mogen wrote:

countersniper wrote:

mogen wrote:

Risasi wrote:The guys says the pilots were experienced yet he again says they flew over the unacceptable ceiling of the gunship ….the first thing a student pilots learns is the basic characteristic of his aircraft i.e how high he can and should fly it….
i Remember asking Jas. On what figures he should his altimeter when he lands on a new field??? And Jas. Come up with not only the right answer but why he would do that.
The guy picked his wordings hapa tuu. Esp. the safety part flare etc. suggested by one ON.

Now this is worrying. I understand the UPDF is ready to send some more choppers on their way to Soomaaliya!!

the UPDF is supposed to be having 12 mi24..of which only 5 or 6 were in serviceable condition.
so if they have lost three ..they can technically squeeze out 2 more for Somalia..that means they would have deployed their entire working gunship capability to Somalia? no one knows the status of the fleet but i am inclined to believe that not all are in working order.

@C.Sniper
I haven't read or heard anything that says Uganda must supply airpower for the assault on kismayo. It can happen with or without the behemoths. Don't think UPDF has to scramble and send another set of Hinds to Somalia. But if they do, this time round they should dismantle and carry them in cargo planes or be escorted by KDF from border to border

BTW:
I had read on this forum that the Helicopters in the formation were maintaining silence but the article, Kenya: Uganda Pilots Veered Off Flight Path, quotes aviation sources that contract that story. Check this:

"...Civil aviation sources said they could hear the soldiers as they communicated amongst themselves in Luganda just minutes before the crash. Military sources said the soldiers were about 30 minutes into their flight when they realized there was bad weather ahead. To try and compensate for the poor visibility, the pilots are alleged to have gained height and were flying far above the required altitude. Aviation experts said the choppers were flying at 11, 000 feet when they came down.

A pilot who was flying in the area said he picked on his civilian radio frequency, one of the distressed Ugandan pilots asking for instructions. The military spoke in English before resorting to Luganda. The Kenyan pilot said that he then heard another voice instruct the pilots to increase speed to 170 knots. The rest of the instructions were delivered in vernacular.

Realising that the soldiers were heading straight into the mountain,the Kenyan pilot attempted to break into the military frequency to warn them of the dangers ahead but he was unable to get through. Aviation experts say the fact that the four helicopters were flying in formation indicated that the lead pilot may have been the only one with the experience of negotiating the mountain.

" Any other pilot leading a formation would turn back if he realized that his colleagues were not with him. Why did he fly ahead to Garissa without first establishing the status of the rest of his team? Why were they all communicating in their vernacular when in distress yet they knew they might need assistance from the locals?," a military source said....http://allafrica.com/stories/201208180114.html

Communicating in Luganda? really? i have no doubt that this is not true. For starters, none of the pilots was a Muganda. In fact, there were three northerners and one Westerner-so Luganda would not be the best language. Of the three northerners, two came from West-nile-(Arua) and another from Lango or Acholi and i am sure Luganda is not an easy language for them, leave alone using it to communicate.

aggressor one wrote:Communicating in Luganda? really? i have no doubt that this is not true. For starters, none of the pilots was a Muganda. In fact, there were three northerners and one Westerner-so Luganda would not be the best language. Of the three northerners, two came from West-nile-(Arua) and another from Lango or Acholi and i am sure Luganda is not an easy language for them, leave alone using it to communicate.

I was astonished by that claim. Even if all of the pilots were Baganda, it's NOT ALLOWED to communicate in vernacular, period. I am a Muganda but if someone on the other side asked me something or communicated in Luganda, I wouldn't take them seriously. besides, I don't know many things in aviation lingua franca that can be spelt out in Luganda . For this reason pilots mostly communicate in English, even in military situations.

That said, most people outside Uganda don't know UPDF speaks Swahili or English. I have never seen a UPDF soldier who doesn't speak either - it's part of completion of training. It may sound different, just like Kenyan Swahili is different from Zanzibari or DRC Swahili, but it's Swahili nonetheless.

Spartan wrote:

aggressor one wrote:Communicating in Luganda? really? i have no doubt that this is not true. For starters, none of the pilots was a Muganda. In fact, there were three northerners and one Westerner-so Luganda would not be the best language. Of the three northerners, two came from West-nile-(Arua) and another from Lango or Acholi and i am sure Luganda is not an easy language for them, leave alone using it to communicate.

I was astonished by that claim. Even if all of the pilots were Baganda, it's NOT ALLOWED to communicate in vernacular, period. I am a Muganda but if someone on the other side asked me something or communicated in Luganda, I wouldn't take them seriously. besides, I don't know many things in aviation lingua franca that can be spelt out in Luganda .

That said, most people outside Uganda don't know UPDF speaks Swahili. I have never seen a UPDF soldier who doesn't speak it - it's part of completion of training. It may sound different, just like Kenyan Swahili is different from Zanzibari or DRC Swahili, but it's Swahili nonetheless.

@Spartan

jasiri wrote:why were the bodies of the fallen airmen from Uganda transported in a civilian plane (5Y-HAJ Hawker Siddelley 748 air services) instead of the KDF-AF?

748 Air Services has been contracted by Amisom in Somalia for Air logistics and as such would heve been the obvious choice to transport the fallen soldiers who were part of an Amisom contigent.

Sierra Kilo wrote:

jasiri wrote:why were the bodies of the fallen airmen from Uganda transported in a civilian plane (5Y-HAJ Hawker Siddelley 748 air services) instead of the KDF-AF?

748 Air Services has been contracted by Amisom in Somalia for Air logistics and as such would heve been the obvious choice to transport the fallen soldiers who were part of an Amisom contigent.

that makes alot of sense
the same group can be asked to provide airlift for gunships to somalia.

countersniper wrote:

Sierra Kilo wrote:

jasiri wrote:why were the bodies of the fallen airmen from Uganda transported in a civilian plane (5Y-HAJ Hawker Siddelley 748 air services) instead of the KDF-AF?

748 Air Services has been contracted by Amisom in Somalia for Air logistics and as such would heve been the obvious choice to transport the fallen soldiers who were part of an Amisom contigent.

that makes alot of sense
the same group can be asked to provide airlift for gunships to somalia.

The UPDF too has got some huge cargo planes under its production arm. They too can help in heavy lifting of equipment if that is what they decide on. The planes are C-130s.

aggressor one wrote:
The UPDF too has got some huge cargo planes under its production arm. The planes are C-130s.

There are indeed two C-130 (Reg. Nos 5X-UYY & 5X-UYX) operated by the Ministry of Defence through the Company UACC. Civilian Cargo Freighting in East Africa really - no military tasking thus far.

But it made every sense to transit the HINDS in full-combat-mode to the Theatre of Ops - unarmed, that is. No real functional justification to disassemble these complex birds, then crate them, load them into cargo train or planes to Baidoa, and then painstakingly reassemble them again in Theatre. The birds are only just out of expensive refurb!!! And their need in Theatre is immediate! While accidents are sometimes unavoidable, we all have valuable lessons learnt and can get this done without mishap next time around.

Rumours splashed around public places in Kampala about the Hinds reaching Mombasa and turning around to eventually crash in Mt. Kenya are too fantastically surreal to warrant comment!! Eeeiish!!

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as far as we are aware...updf has no C130 transport planes.

and even if they had ..these can only carry an MI24 in crates.. so that means dismantling the mi24..and re assembling in Somalia where there are no hangar facilities .
dismantling and assembling will take no less than six months from assembling to airworthiness testing and certification..

not a good idea if you ask me.

countersniper wrote:as far as we are aware...updf has no C130 transport planes.

With you on that @countersniper, i think what they have is the russian variant AN-12,.....not sure if they are operational though.

Sierra Kilo wrote:

countersniper wrote:as far as we are aware...updf has no C130 transport planes.

With you on that @countersniper, i think what they have is the russian variant AN-12,.....not sure if they are operational though.

ole nkarei
has corrected me that the uganda air cargo operates two C130 planes.
looking into this and will revert back here.

....There are indeed two C-130 (Reg. Nos 5X-UYY & 5X-UYX)
operated by the Ministry of Defence through the Company UACC. Civilian
Cargo Freighting in East Africa really - no military tasking thus far.....

ole nkarei is right
uganda air cargo is a state coperation operating four planes two of them cargo and two passenger planes and some russian made helios
on lease arrangements.
these are nothing to do with their military posture
here is there home page


http://www.ugandaaircargo.com/

http://jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6058222&nseq=9

countersniper wrote:ole nkarei is right
uganda air cargo is a state coperation operating four planes two of them cargo and two passenger planes and some russian made helios
on lease arrangements.
these are nothing to do with their military posture
here is there home page


http://www.ugandaaircargo.com/

http://jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6058222&nseq=9

Uganda Air Cargo is an arm of the UPDF/Ministry of Defence and were need rises, these c-130s have been used to transport troops and equipment to operation areas-just like happened in Nzara, DRC and the CAR.

More helicopters? How many are in the inventory? Figures given elsewhere indicates only a small number:-
http://www.newvision.co.ug/news/634236-Uganda-ready-to-send-more-helicopters-to-Somalia.html

And once they approve the redeployments of the choppers, a different flying route outside kenyas airspace should be considered all together.

I guess some people just do things to gain some cheap publicity:-

http://www.boston.com/news/world/africa/2012/08/23/uganda-faces-pressure-pull-troops-from-somalia/QBWdGXZtJCeLuJKvLIbRSJ/story.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/activist-group-presses-uganda-to-pull-its-troops-out-of-somalia-threatens-demonstrations/2012/08/23/70c71c78-ed30-11e1-866f-60a00f604425_story.html

Batian wrote:And once they approve the redeployments of the choppers, a different flying route outside kenyas airspace should be considered all together.

And why is that so?

Olekoima wrote:I guess some people just do things to gain some cheap publicity:-

http://www.boston.com/news/world/africa/2012/08/23/uganda-faces-pressure-pull-troops-from-somalia/QBWdGXZtJCeLuJKvLIbRSJ/story.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/activist-group-presses-uganda-to-pull-its-troops-out-of-somalia-threatens-demonstrations/2012/08/23/70c71c78-ed30-11e1-866f-60a00f604425_story.html

This is being reported in American media to create the perception that UPDF is doing Americas bootwork on the ground and it being an election year, the American civil (rights) movements are war weary and might give an ear ($$) to the so called activists. They did mint lots when the homophobic bill was brought to parliament in Kampala some time early this year.

Olekoima wrote:

Batian wrote:And once they approve the redeployments of the choppers, a different flying route outside kenyas airspace should be considered all together.

And why is that so?

I have deep felt condolences for the crew members that did not make it but this flamboyant Crane fellow decided to stray off to rover and commence a recce mission after mopping their scene of the chopper mishaps

Batian wrote:And once they approve the redeployments of the choppers, a different flying route outside kenyas airspace should be considered all together.

You know something we don't, buddy?

Spartan wrote:

Batian wrote:And once they approve the redeployments of the choppers, a different flying route outside kenyas airspace should be considered all together.

You know something we don't, buddy?

No buddy! I was thinking too cautiously hence nothing at all significant here

I tend to agree with M7 here:-
http://www.nation.co.ke/News/Weather+didnt+cause+crash+says+Museveni+/-/1056/1487788/-/uen22az/-/index.html

Olekoima wrote:I tend to agree with M7 here:-
http://www.nation.co.ke/News/Weather+didnt+cause+crash+says+Museveni+/-/1056/1487788/-/uen22az/-/index.html

Everybody has a right to an opinion on what happened, including presidents. Personally, I would rather we close this chapter and move on.

Spartan wrote:

Olekoima wrote:I tend to agree with M7 here:-
http://www.nation.co.ke/News/Weather+didnt+cause+crash+says+Museveni+/-/1056/1487788/-/uen22az/-/index.html

Everybody has a right to an opinion on what happened, including presidents. Personally, I would rather we close this chapter and move on.

Point taken buddy.

Expeprience or lack thereof. These were newly refurbished choppers. Flying above the max altitude sounds like a rookie mistake. You do it at your own peril. Choppers need a lot of air to generate lift if they are not moving in a certain way.

Olekoima wrote:I tend to agree with M7 here:-
http://www.nation.co.ke/News/Weather+didnt+cause+crash+says+Museveni+/-/1056/1487788/-/uen22az/-/index.html

Have not seen this uniform much here, it looks so much like KDF's. Anyway congs Brigadier Muhoozi

Spartan wrote:Have not seen this uniform much here, it looks so much like KDF's. Anyway congs Brigadier Muhoozi

Borrowed yours-truly's Uniform - without express permission!! Looks deadly though! Are you fellas changing your BDU suppliers, ama nini hii?

I hope your head is not on the chopping block, @Spartan. Your Ole Man is shaping to cut off some heads over there, over those Hinds, judging from reports!!