Re: Uganda Peoples Defence Force (UPDF),

Olekoima Tue Sep 06 2011, 09:06

@ Mr Crane,

Could you be refering to this?

http://www.longwarjournal.org/threat-matrix/archives/2011/07/the_uss_overhyped_provision_of.php

Then there is the recent visit by the Israeli military top brass to selected African countries-Ethiopia,Kenya,Uganda etc whose purpose was seen as marketing the Israeli drone. I can't find the link now, but will post it as soon as i find it.

Guest Tue Sep 06 2011, 10:36

Though I am back in class, god help me, I have followed this Drones debate with some trepidations, coz I think there is some disinformation being seeded here.

From my present understanding, and I have asked for validation, (a) the variant UPDF received from the Americans is the Infantry-launch variant with specific tasking as a tactic battle-field advance recon utility. Clearly though it lacks an offensive capabilities, this equipment does requires greater and more specific/specialised development of the user-troop, an enhanced command and control capabilities, not presently available with the UPDF, and is usable in defined constricted conditions such as a very fluid, very asymmetric, very brutal / savage situations borderline on the Geneva Convention on Military conflict – ergo, it is a very serious aggravation of War. I reckon that none of the Threat Matrix we all face in Kenyana would justify substantive inclusion of these utilities into our theatre- only Four of these were delivered to UGABAG6. These are however very useful for laser-targeting on a limited battlefield in Afghanistan.

(b) even the Israeli variant has a bias more to surveillance for a porous, hostile, active border with an tactical offensive ability integrated into a larger system, than tactical aggressor-recon capability on a reduced battlefield. Obviously the Israelis would not off-load any such without the concurrence of Uncle Sam – The Chinese have really altered things in the world, by gawd!!

Spartan Tue Sep 06 2011, 12:23

@ ole Nkarei, I feel you bro about classes every other time. Believe me, you are not alone.

Straight to the point(s). These stories about which command and control capabilities UPDF doesn't have and stuff, they are beginning to look, for lack of a better word, stale. Those drones don't need any of that, they are field kit that a battalion can use to stream video about enemy strengths, deployment etc directly to a monitor (in a tent or some tree shade command post). Period.

The Americans who provided them know UPDF's capabilities and were confident we could use them. Talking of capabilities, wikileaks has an earful of about Kenyan military capabilities. The cables come in the wake of the Jubaland initiative. Zenawi, the Djibouti PM, M7 and even the Americans themselves give damning assessments of the Kenyan army's ability to pull off the most basic of military operations.

Does anyone want a link?

Olekoima Tue Sep 06 2011, 12:58

Spartan wrote:@ ole Nkarei, I feel you bro about classes every other time. Believe me, you are not alone.

Straight to the point(s). These stories about which command and control capabilities UPDF doesn't have and stuff, they are beginning to look, for lack of a better word, stale. Those drones don't need any of that, they are field kit that a battalion can use to stream video about enemy strengths, deployment etc directly to a monitor (in a tent or some tree shade command post). Period.

The Americans who provided them know UPDF's capabilities and were confident we could use them. Talking of capabilities, wikileaks has an earful of about Kenyan military capabilities. The cables come in the wake of the Jubaland initiative. Zenawi, the Djibouti PM, M7 and even the Americans themselves give damning assessments of the Kenyan army's ability to pull off the most basic of military operations.

Does anyone want a link?

Yes, link please. I did read a story attributed to the British who kind of trusted the Kenyan APs more than the army. Is this it?

Olekoima Tue Sep 06 2011, 13:11

@ Spartan,

How much do we believe of the Wikileaks? I don't think everything there in is necessarily true.

Anyway waiting for the link as indicated above. Separately mJeshi mMoja has posted useful information about the drones in the Kenyan page. Apparently UG has also purchased 2 drones from Israel. I believe these are in addition to the 4 given by the US.

Guest Tue Sep 06 2011, 13:29

Spartan wrote:@ ole Nkarei, I feel you bro about classes every other time. Believe me, you are not alone.

Straight to the point(s). These stories about which command and control capabilities UPDF doesn't have and stuff, they are beginning to look, for lack of a better word, stale. Those drones don't need any of that, they are field kit that a battalion can use to stream video about enemy strengths, deployment etc directly to a monitor (in a tent or some tree shade command post). Period.

The Americans who provided them know UPDF's capabilities and were confident we could use them. Talking of capabilities, wikileaks has an earful of about Kenyan military capabilities. The cables come in the wake of the Jubaland initiative. Zenawi, the Djibouti PM, M7 and even the Americans themselves give damning assessments of the Kenyan army's ability to pull off the most basic of military operations.

Does anyone want a link?

Hey Bro, I don’t intend to give offense at all. But we can dispassionately call a spade a spade, between Uniforms, no? It does gall one for certain when negative assessments are made but it is not my intention to cast aspersions on comrades in uniform.

I suppose if one choses to restrict the definition of ‘Command and Control’ to a basic Unit level, then your point is quite valid. Now, bearing in mind the extremely specialised nature these 10KM range, 2Kg tare-weight full-laden, 90 minutes maxi flight-time, drones will serve, due to their absolute lack of either (i)offensive capacity or (ii) tactical battlefield versatility – as they will simply just provide raw/immediate intelligence AT BASIC UNIT LEVEL, in a small cyclic radius, even the basic Unit will require greater specialisation in training ability and leadership to properly utilise them. Not to mention that their interfacing with general command necessarily requires greater specialisation of equipment and .ability of Coordination than presently available with UGABAG6.

As concerns the Wikileaks expose on American Diplomats gossips, - c’mon Spartan!! You know as I do that in Intel terms, there is no probative value to these gossips. There are intended to trigger validation by the Intelligence bodies, that is all!! A weather balloon, really. Not one of these exposes is credited to a body whose statutory purpose is the validation of information for immediate consumption.

Meles and M7 are all in competition with the Ole Man for the attentions of Uncle Sam’s Billions of this War-against-terror Chest.

Spartan Tue Sep 06 2011, 14:33

ole Nkarei wrote:
Spartan wrote:@ ole Nkarei, I feel you bro about classes every other time. Believe me, you are not alone.

Straight to the point(s). These stories about which command and control capabilities UPDF doesn't have and stuff, they are beginning to look, for lack of a better word, stale. Those drones don't need any of that, they are field kit that a battalion can use to stream video about enemy strengths, deployment etc directly to a monitor (in a tent or some tree shade command post). Period.

The Americans who provided them know UPDF's capabilities and were confident we could use them. Talking of capabilities, wikileaks has an earful of about Kenyan military capabilities. The cables come in the wake of the Jubaland initiative. Zenawi, the Djibouti PM, M7 and even the Americans themselves give damning assessments of the Kenyan army's ability to pull off the most basic of military operations.

Does anyone want a link?

Hey Bro, I don’t intend to give offense at all. But we can dispassionately call a spade a spade, between Uniforms, no? It does gall one for certain when negative assessments are made but it is not my intention to cast aspersions on comrades in uniform.

I suppose if one choses to restrict the definition of ‘Command and Control’ to a basic Unit level, then your point is quite valid. Now, bearing in mind the extremely specialised nature these 10KM range, 2Kg tare-weight full-laden, 90 minutes maxi flight-time, drones will serve, due to their absolute lack of either (i)offensive capacity or (ii) tactical battlefield versatility – as they will simply just provide raw/immediate intelligence AT BASIC UNIT LEVEL, in a small cyclic radius, even the basic Unit will require greater specialisation in training ability and leadership to properly utilise them. Not to mention that their interfacing with general command necessarily requires greater specialisation of equipment and .ability of Coordination than presently available with UGABAG6.

As concerns the Wikileaks expose on American Diplomats gossips, - c’mon Spartan!! You know as I do that in Intel terms, there is no probative value to these gossips. There are intended to trigger validation by the Intelligence bodies, that is all!! A weather balloon, really. Not one of these exposes is credited to a body whose statutory purpose is the validation of information for immediate consumption.

Meles and M7 are all in competition with the Ole Man for the attentions of Uncle Sam’s Billions of this War-against-terror Chest.

They do not have to interface with general command and control, that's for the big boys - USA, UK if you know what I mean. Uganda has not claimed to belong to that club, neither has UGABAG6. And if I were the C.O of a battalion in hostile environs, I wouldn't want decisions concerning the safety of my men to be made by some generals in air conditioned 'Control Rooms'.

Now about the 'gossip', you haven't read it yet, have you? It is the views of people who have waged wars and could be your potential adversaries.

http://www.cablegatesearch.net/cable.php?id=10ADDISABABA163
http://www.cablegatesearch.net/cable.php?id=10LONDON89
http://www.cablegatesearch.net/cable.php?id=10DJIBOUTI165&q=djibouti%20jubaland

For obvious reasons, I've not posted the M7 link. If you want it, work for it.

Guest Tue Sep 06 2011, 15:20

Spartan wrote:
They do not have to interface with general command and control, that's for the big boys - USA, UK if you know what I mean. Uganda has not claimed to belong to that club, neither has UGABAG6. And if I were the C.O of a battalion in hostile environs, I wouldn't want decisions concerning the safety of my men to be made by some generals in air conditioned 'Control Rooms'.

I see trees, you see a forest! Eiish! Gotta get back to class, man!!

Now about the 'gossip', you haven't read it yet, have you? It is the views of people who have waged wars and could be your potential adversaries.

http://www.cablegatesearch.net/cable.php?id=10ADDISABABA163
http://www.cablegatesearch.net/cable.php?id=10LONDON89
http://www.cablegatesearch.net/cable.php?id=10DJIBOUTI165&q=djibouti%20jubaland

For obvious reasons, I've not posted the M7 link. If you want it, work for it.

I read these weepy things kitambo, bra!! At best, a poorly concealed disinformation scheme! Cautionary sniff is advised before you waff it down!

Spartan Tue Sep 06 2011, 15:41

@ ole Nkarei, welcome back from class.

Call the reports 'weepy' and all. The fact is, regional leaders did not have faith in a Kenyan operation to capture Kismayo, and made their feelings known to the Americans and Brits. And they believed them. If that's what you call weepy, we are on the same page.

What's with the red colour? You are not using crayons in class, are you? Just kidding

Olekoima Wed Sep 07 2011, 07:57

Spartan wrote:
ole Nkarei wrote:
Spartan wrote:@ ole Nkarei, I feel you bro about classes every other time. Believe me, you are not alone.

Straight to the point(s). These stories about which command and control capabilities UPDF doesn't have and stuff, they are beginning to look, for lack of a better word, stale. Those drones don't need any of that, they are field kit that a battalion can use to stream video about enemy strengths, deployment etc directly to a monitor (in a tent or some tree shade command post). Period.

The Americans who provided them know UPDF's capabilities and were confident we could use them. Talking of capabilities, wikileaks has an earful of about Kenyan military capabilities. The cables come in the wake of the Jubaland initiative. Zenawi, the Djibouti PM, M7 and even the Americans themselves give damning assessments of the Kenyan army's ability to pull off the most basic of military operations.

Does anyone want a link?

Hey Bro, I don’t intend to give offense at all. But we can dispassionately call a spade a spade, between Uniforms, no? It does gall one for certain when negative assessments are made but it is not my intention to cast aspersions on comrades in uniform.

I suppose if one choses to restrict the definition of ‘Command and Control’ to a basic Unit level, then your point is quite valid. Now, bearing in mind the extremely specialised nature these 10KM range, 2Kg tare-weight full-laden, 90 minutes maxi flight-time, drones will serve, due to their absolute lack of either (i)offensive capacity or (ii) tactical battlefield versatility – as they will simply just provide raw/immediate intelligence AT BASIC UNIT LEVEL, in a small cyclic radius, even the basic Unit will require greater specialisation in training ability and leadership to properly utilise them. Not to mention that their interfacing with general command necessarily requires greater specialisation of equipment and .ability of Coordination than presently available with UGABAG6.

As concerns the Wikileaks expose on American Diplomats gossips, - c’mon Spartan!! You know as I do that in Intel terms, there is no probative value to these gossips. There are intended to trigger validation by the Intelligence bodies, that is all!! A weather balloon, really. Not one of these exposes is credited to a body whose statutory purpose is the validation of information for immediate consumption.

Meles and M7 are all in competition with the Ole Man for the attentions of Uncle Sam’s Billions of this War-against-terror Chest.

They do not have to interface with general command and control, that's for the big boys - USA, UK if you know what I mean. Uganda has not claimed to belong to that club, neither has UGABAG6. And if I were the C.O of a battalion in hostile environs, I wouldn't want decisions concerning the safety of my men to be made by some generals in air conditioned 'Control Rooms'.

Now about the 'gossip', you haven't read it yet, have you? It is the views of people who have waged wars and could be your potential adversaries.

http://www.cablegatesearch.net/cable.php?id=10ADDISABABA163
http://www.cablegatesearch.net/cable.php?id=10LONDON89
http://www.cablegatesearch.net/cable.php?id=10DJIBOUTI165&q=djibouti%20jubaland

For obvious reasons, I've not posted the M7 link. If you want it, work for it.

Well, we all know the reasons for all these and i believe you do also bro Spartan. The lack of faith has nothing to do with Kenyan military capabilities, but rather on the likelyhood of success. The reason is that it is much easier for Uganda and Ethiopia to wage a war in Somalia and win than it is for Kenya. This is because for the Kenyan case, a large size of the force is composed of ethnic Somalis who are more likely to side with their kin on the ground hence hampering the chance for success.

Guest Wed Sep 07 2011, 08:07

Olekoima wrote:Well, we all know the reasons for all these and i believe you do also bro Spartan. The lack of faith has nothing to do with Kenyan military capabilities, but rather on the likelyhood of success. The reason is that it is much easier for Uganda and Ethiopia to wage a war in Somalia and win than it is for Kenya. This is because for the Kenyan case, a large size of the force is composed of ethnic Somalis who are more likely to side with their kin on the ground hence hampering the chance for success.

Yes, well, this represents a problem, doesn't it? Why have a highly trained and capable force that won't fight for you?

Olekoima Wed Sep 07 2011, 08:46

Vitruvian wrote:
Olekoima wrote:Well, we all know the reasons for all these and i believe you do also bro Spartan. The lack of faith has nothing to do with Kenyan military capabilities, but rather on the likelyhood of success. The reason is that it is much easier for Uganda and Ethiopia to wage a war in Somalia and win than it is for Kenya. This is because for the Kenyan case, a large size of the force is composed of ethnic Somalis who are more likely to side with their kin on the ground hence hampering the chance for success.

Yes, well, this represents a problem, doesn't it? Why have a highly trained and capable force that won't fight for you?

I' am referring to engagements deep in Somalia sir. These we have to approach with caution given the ethnic mix of our forces especially with regard to Somalia. Elsewhere this cannot be a problem.

Guest Wed Sep 07 2011, 13:05

Spartan wrote:@ ole Nkarei, welcome back from class.

What's with the red colour? You are not using crayons in class, are you? Just kidding

Hahaha!! I will get you for this, Spartan! Very Happy

Just you wait! Heheheh! Crayons, eh? Gawd, I hate school!!

Flying Crane Wed Sep 07 2011, 13:08

What the part of the cable is hard for you guys to comprehend? It’s a badly kept regional secret about how Kenya can conduct its ops and what their capabilities are. They are just not go in open ground warfare.

Guest Wed Sep 07 2011, 13:25

Vitruvian wrote:

Yes, well, this represents a problem, doesn't it? Why have a highly trained and capable force that won't fight for you?

Vitruvian, good question that, buddy. I think in the last year or so we have been back and forth on just this pesky query, and the answers are as many as the situation is completx.

Olekoima does make a good point about this. But I reckon that even on a common threat like that from Al-Shabaaba/Al-Qaeda in Somalia, it represents different Matrixes to Kenya, Ethiopia Uganda, because the dynamics are entirely different. Hence, the Philosophy that drives Policies to counter this common threat must necessarily be different. Whileas Ethiopia seek to annihilate this threat and be damed with the costs of it, Kenya develops a containment policy to allow for appropriate assimilation and enculturalization - which is inevitable given the demography of the region. Many ways to skin a cat, I reckon.

Guest Wed Sep 07 2011, 15:00

Flying Crane wrote:What the part of the cable is hard for you guys to comprehend? It’s a badly kept regional secret about how Kenya can conduct its ops and what their capabilities are. They are just not go in open ground warfare.

You're such a pest! I can make the same contention about any number of armies. I just can't back it up.

jasiri Thu Sep 08 2011, 00:06

Vitruvian wrote:
Flying Crane wrote:What the part of the cable is hard for you guys to comprehend? It’s a badly kept regional secret about how Kenya can conduct its ops and what their capabilities are. They are just not go in open ground warfare.

You're such a pest! I can make the same contention about any number of armies. I just can't back it up.

Now now kids, settle down and be good.

Guest Sun Sep 11 2011, 21:15

http://ugandansatheart.org/2009/01/31/why-cant-updf-be-like-kenyas-forces/

It would be instructive to hear your comments on this rather pedestrian article, brother Spartan, Flying Crane.

Spartan Mon Sep 12 2011, 14:22

@ ole Nkarei, I would like to reply in detail but am on course. Probably in the evening. But not bad, the suggestions, not bad at all.

Olekoima Thu Sep 15 2011, 10:06

Perhaps an interesting article on East African arms race. Read on:-

http://allafrica.com/stories/201105241360.html

Spartan Wed Sep 21 2011, 09:08

@ ole Nkarei, how true is this report, especially concerning the assertion that "Kenya has been negotiating with China to trade fishing rights for arms"?

http://www.armybase.us/2009/01/fc-1-jf-17-is-the-most-popular-chinese-military-exports-to-africa/

Sometimes the Gumboot Army can come across as quite "well fed". Luckily, these ones were returning and not going for active duty.

Uganda Peoples Defence Force (UPDF), - Page 5 Uganda-troops-2009-9-4-13-41-1

Uganda Peoples Defence Force (UPDF), - Page 5 Uganda-troops-2009-9-4-13-41-1

jasiri Wed Sep 21 2011, 18:34

Spartan wrote:these ones were returning and not going for active duty

Doesn't that clearly exhibit the stress of serving the UPDF within Uganda? I mean if a man can gain weight in Somalia as opposed to his own country then that tells a lot! On the other hand Spartan, i hope you don't expect us to believe that the UPDF is uniformly kitted with Kevlar BP vests and new gen imperial helmets.

Guest Wed Sep 21 2011, 18:54

jasiri wrote:
[color=darkred]Spartan wrote:these ones were returning and not going for active duty
Doesn't that clearly exhibit the stress of serving the UPDF within Uganda? I mean if a man can gain weight in Somalia as opposed to his own country then that tells a lot! On the other hand Spartan, i hope you don't expect us to believe that the UPDF is uniformly kitted with Kevlar BP vests and new gen imperial helmets.[/color]

Hey Spartan. Discount that newspaper report - you and I know for what reasons these articles are written.

But Jas has got you spot on Dude!! Hehehe!! Not even Dod G1 & G3 chaps are that healthy looking, by gawd!! Round as a mud fish, eh?!! Hehehe!!

Hey, Jas, is the 'deed' done, now?

jasiri Wed Sep 21 2011, 20:14

@Nkarei, it's 'go flight'. comencing on 3rd.

Spartan Wed Sep 21 2011, 20:30

jasiri wrote:
Spartan wrote:these ones were returning and not going for active duty
Doesn't that clearly exhibit the stress of serving the UPDF within Uganda? I mean if a man can gain weight in Somalia as opposed to his own country then that tells a lot! On the other hand Spartan, i hope you don't expect us to believe that the UPDF is uniformly kitted with Kevlar BP vests and new gen imperial helmets.

Soldiers aren't supposed to gain weight bila mupango, gentlemen. Unless of course if they are in some country where the army ~~is a career army~~ doesn't go to war and has no plans to do it. Uganda is the only country in this region which feeds itself (and a great deal of Western Kenya and South Sudan), remember? Gaining weight shouldn't be a problem for any Ugandan, as long as you aren't in the UPDF, that is.

As for the kit, I don't know what you meant, bro. Elaborate. But you could start from here: almost everyone in the UPDF will have been to Somalia by the end of the year.

Guest Wed Sep 21 2011, 22:01

jasiri wrote:@Nkarei, it's 'go flight'. comencing on 3rd.

Way to go, Kenyan!! Take wings, Jas!! Very Happy

Flying Crane Thu Sep 22 2011, 11:11

@ The gumboot issue.
I wonder why someone can deliberate about UPDF wearing Gumboot while we buy some of the most expensive military equipment in the region. The UPDF wear gumboot due to the terrain that we move in. Gumboot covers a large potion of the leg when moving in mashy areas. We use those boot for a purpose gentlemen and not by default. Are we done with gumboots boy!!!

Matthew 7:5
http://bible.cc/matthew/7-5.htm

jasiri Thu Sep 22 2011, 12:50

in that case Crane i expect the UPDF to wear sandals to muqdisho since it hot over there, what happened to that? Couldn't find sandals expensieve enough?

Spartan Thu Sep 22 2011, 17:37

jasiri wrote:in that case Crane i expect the UPDF to wear sandals to muqdisho since it hot over there, what happened to that? Couldn't find sandals expensieve enough?

jasiri, I gather from your comments here that you have little personal experience in any uniform, school uniforms aside. Half of your country has conditions similar to Somalia's. Do your troops wear sandals when there? I find some of your comments, frankly, condescending and contemptible.

And I think you can do better than that.

jasiri Thu Sep 22 2011, 19:08

of course i can do better than that spartan. However Crane reasons that you ned gumboots coz of marshy areas right? Kenya has such conditions too yet we don't wear gumboots. This is not about KDF's footwear but UPDF footwear going by what Crane here has tod us. Surelly if gumboots are used for marshlands in the UPDF then i half expect sandals for hot and dry.

By the way, u are right. I do not pretend to have experiences in any uniforms other than school uniforms.

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