Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

obienga Thu Oct 10 2013, 20:45

mogen wrote:This is not good at all.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/oct/04/westgate-mall-attacks-kenya-terror#undefined

These things happen because "we" permit them to take place repeatedly and eventually they spiral out of control. There are limits, no matter how few, on how far one can abuse freedom of speech/press. In Daniel Howden's article, no where does he seek official GoK comment on what he is reporting about, his article is geared towards a theme of utter ineptitude, incompetence and failure. For example he highlights the Major's tweet but fails to provide the entire context around it, which was the fact that there were hostages and people who knew them, who were using twitter to establish communications with them. Howden has a duty to inform, not disinform or mislead his readers. He neglects some of the below tweets by the Major prior to the tweet he includes in his article.

InteriorCNG Ministry @InteriorKE 21 Sep
Pls RT: The situation is being contained and we will keep you updated. Pls avoid spreading non-factual info.
Retweeted by Major E K Chirchir

InteriorCNG Ministry @InteriorKE 21 Sep
Pls RT:We urge Kenyans to keep off Westgate mall in westlands,adjacent roads and it's environs until further notice.cc @PoliceKE @IGkimaiyo
Retweeted by Major E K Chirchir

Citizen TV News @CitizenTVNews 21 Sep
Inspector General of Police David Kimaiyo via his twitter account @IGkimaiyo says the Westgate mall is currently surrounded by police.
Retweeted by Major E K Chirchir

InteriorCNG Ministry @InteriorKE 21 Sep
Pls RT: We urge Kenyans to keep off Westgate mall in Westlands and it's environs until further notice cc @PoliceKE @IGkimaiyo
Retweeted by Major E K Chirchir

When we grant visas to individuals who serve to offer no good to Kenya's image through false or inaccurate reportage and fail to challenge such reportage, we as a nation suffer the consequences. If Daniel Howden's and other irresponsible journalist's future entry visas were denied, would Kenya suffer any consequence if the country demanded that a more responsible journalist was sent by the Guardian or CNN? Nima Elbagir was back in Nairobi for Westgate after her obviously staged pre-election report on violence for which she refused to cooperate to prevent the commission of an "impending crime". Entry to a nation is not a right, it is a privilege. The exchange from several others with the Major on twitter following his tweet shows that it accomplished some good will https://twitter.com/MajorEChirchir/status/381363590458277888 supported by this article: http://www.buzzfeed.com/rachelzarrell/tweets-from-people-who-were-trapped-inside-westgate-mall

We had faces of some of the dead splashed across front pages the world over with no modicum of journalistic ethics. The open letter to Tyler Hicks speaks volumes for someone who had to find out from a picture published to the entire world that his very own relative was dead http://www.scribd.com/doc/171829052/%E2%80%9CForget-the-ethics-What-good-does-risk-taking-photojournalism-serve-in-a-hostage-massacre-%E2%80%9D, see also this open letter http://michaeldeibert.blogspot.com/2013/09/letter-to-new-york-times-public-editor.html Tyler Hicks in Nairobi remains unapologetic on his decision to publish the photos, the fact is he would not dare publish the faces of dead Americans or Britons to an American audience but will do so using Kenyan faces, from Kenya while remaining in Kenya because no consequence awaits him in any form or fashion. Up to and until the nation seeks to only allow responsible journalists (journalists who are not constrained in their exercise of freedom of speech/press but who accord the right of reply and seek official comment while adhering to journalistic ethics) we should be prepared to live with headlines that are damaging and to which there is no recourse no matter how false or misleading the reportage is. This is now manifesting itself in other areas where the same media sources are cited in some cases as "credible" references.

Uzi Thu Oct 10 2013, 20:52

Gallahad wrote:http://www.the-star.co.ke/news/article-138924/westgate-operation-was-bungled-uhuru

Did the recce squad leave the site of an on-going operation?

Its obvious our forces need integrated training programs. Its sickening to imagine that instead of fighting the Kebabs some guys were on a drinking and looting spree. This behavior is a reflection of our society. Something is terribly wrong with us as a people taking advantage of situations to satisfy/enrich ourselves irrespective of the impact to others. The same script is everywhere whether its MPigs adding their salaries or the common man who rushes to accident scene and robs the dead or dying. God help us.

Sierra Kilo Thu Oct 10 2013, 20:55

Gallahad wrote:http://www.the-star.co.ke/news/article-138924/westgate-operation-was-bungled-uhuru

Did the recce squad leave the site of an on-going operation?

Before the changeover there was a friendly exchange of fire between us and KDF. KDF shot dead one of our officers who had done so much earlier and in retaliation our officers also shot dead three KDF officers. This incident caused a lot of tension and we left Westgate in protest,” said a Recce officer who was at Westgate.

wow!!!.... what the f**k happened in there, are we really in Kenya??

MasterChief Thu Oct 10 2013, 21:28

Sierra Kilo wrote:
Gallahad wrote:http://www.the-star.co.ke/news/article-138924/westgate-operation-was-bungled-uhuru

Did the recce squad leave the site of an on-going operation?
Before the changeover there was a friendly exchange of fire between us and KDF. KDF shot dead one of our officers who had done so much earlier and in retaliation our officers also shot dead three KDF officers. This incident caused a lot of tension and we left Westgate in protest,” said a Recce officer who was at Westgate.

wow!!!.... what the f**k happened in there, are we really in Kenya??

I am telling you that the GSU (reccee) had this cat in the bag until politics, ego and whatever got in the way and someone decided to send rookies from langata and then later the special forces from as far as Mombasa some say Kismayu.

The question is why would anybody replace a force (GSU) trained in hostage and close quarter combat with rookies fresh from boot camp?

Why is it that even today the KDF still in charge of a serious matter which is a civilian police matter up today?

This are serious questions we need to ask. We need to know what is the security command structure in such situations? Is it the Internal security secretary? The police commisioner? Military? Or the the Civil service chief?

Nothing personal guys just maswali.

Risasi Fri Oct 11 2013, 02:43

@Uzi you and I know that you can't sip in beer while belt feed PK is darting 7.62mm traces above you. sawa bwana....
some young fellas decide to flash some cold down their throats after escape with their life's in the 72 hrs ordeal. they did something silly without think of the consequences, but what else would you expect from 22year olds. no excuse for it but honestly they were acting their age, after the heat of the moment. poleni,

@MasterChief come on suppose the Recce ditched it up , honestly would you have been contented ?? I am 100% sure you would asked why didn,t we send in SpOps forces to combat those well armed militias.
some people will always critics for the sake of it.

lets move on.

obienga Fri Oct 11 2013, 03:49

Sierra Kilo

Before the changeover there was a friendly exchange of fire between us and KDF. KDF shot dead one of our officers who had done so much earlier and in retaliation our officers also shot dead three KDF officers. This incident caused a lot of tension and we left Westgate in protest,” said a Recce officer who was at Westgate.

The only thing consistent between this account and several other accounts published long before this article is the single friendly fire incident. The Nairobi Star has published a lot of questionable stories, for instance they claimed that foreign investigators were threatening to leave the investigation after being denied access to take DNA samples from the bodies, only to mention within the very same article that there had been no bodies recovered! http://www.the-star.co.ke/news/article-137915/foreign-analysts-frustrated-over-dna The new story is that they have left after being frustrated and not having access to the mall! You know something is sinister when all other previous accounts, including those taken from other soldiers state that an Al Shabaab sniper was responsible for the deaths of 3 KDF officers. The Kebabs immediately named the soldier whose funeral is featured in the article long before his name was made public by his MP while the Westgate rescue operation was still going on.
I will not post the link to the Kebab claim here but it ought to cast serious doubt on what the Star is stating granted their track record thus far on Westgate and anti-establishment reporting. As much as all media has deviated or twisted facts in one way or another, the local and international accounts on the Kebab sniper have been consistent from the beginning until the Star's attempt to change what has been known. Indeed the Star's captions on the funeral photographs contradict their new narrative. Instead I post in part what was said about the KDF soldier by his MP which is the least the Star could have done to honour him and his service:

Jacktone Onyango Puodi 27, the VALIANT KDF soldier in the Special Force who was shot by terrorists fighting for his country and people at Westgate Mall. Jacktone was an orphan. By the time of his death, he had served the country in several critical assignments in Northern Kenya and was supposed to travel to Kismayu, Somalia to join the KDF forces there.

obienga Fri Oct 11 2013, 04:43

@Uzi, I concur with @Risasi it is not possible. On another board, I questioned how that would be possible while the operation was in gear, considering photographs taken immediately the operation ended where investigators were allowed in, showed no such widespread display of bottles in the cafe, yet the infamous "smoking gun" video with the voice over laying direct blame on KDF from the same cafe for the "new" bottles raises questions as to whether the gentleman shown at the start of the video is himself riffling through abandoned personal effects before he is asked to stop by the woman doing the filming. The owner of the cafe is middle eastern/Israeli and a man, so was this woman even an employee or someone with the stake in the cafe or just someone lumbering through what is supposed to be a crime scene? Have the woman and man been tracked down and questioned or alternatively recorded a statement as to how they determined it was KDF? If you care to compare and contrast considering that pictures are worth a thousand words and don't lie, you can see more here: http://goo.gl/FYHKwJ

On police and security agencies tactical response to what happened, this could be just one of many directions to glean from for the future: http://www.policeone.com/terrorism/articles/6501177-Are-you-ready-to-repel-a-Kenya-style-mall-attack this video in the middle of this article covers some scenarios which if they did take place could pose difficulties in response for any responding security agency in the world: http://www.policeone.com/active-shooter/articles/4691272-10-years-after-9-11-Are-American-cops-ready-for-a-Mumbai-style-swarm/

proud kenyan Fri Oct 11 2013, 06:37

MasterChief wrote:
Sierra Kilo wrote:
Gallahad wrote:http://www.the-star.co.ke/news/article-138924/westgate-operation-was-bungled-uhuru

Did the recce squad leave the site of an on-going operation?
Before the changeover there was a friendly exchange of fire between us and KDF. KDF shot dead one of our officers who had done so much earlier and in retaliation our officers also shot dead three KDF officers. This incident caused a lot of tension and we left Westgate in protest,” said a Recce officer who was at Westgate.

wow!!!.... what the f**k happened in there, are we really in Kenya??
I am telling you that the GSU (reccee) had this cat in the bag until politics, ego and whatever got in the way and someone decided to send rookies from langata and then later the special forces from as far as Mombasa some say Kismayu.

The question is why would anybody replace a force (GSU) trained in hostage and close quarter combat with rookies fresh from boot camp?

Why is it that even today the KDF still in charge of a serious matter which is a civilian police matter up today?

This are serious questions we need to ask. We need to know what is the security command structure in such situations? Is it the Internal security secretary? The police commisioner? Military? Or the the Civil service chief?

Nothing personal guys just maswali.

@ masterchef who would you trust in such a situation? someone you have trained with or has undergone same training, or someone known to be corrupt to the bone,to the point of tipping off some of the characters involved in the massacre? i felt it was long overdue that the KDF were called in,i couldnt stand to watch the comedy of errors by the internal security structures. some columnists went as far as suggesting that the KDF had no experience in CQBs,forgetting that they had been used in somalia to end a battle in an urban setting,info that was even classified. the intelligence agency wanted powers to go after percieved terrorists because they knew that any info given to the police always ends up with the brigands. how? money exchange and your guess is as good as mine.

Guest Fri Oct 11 2013, 08:58

timoh wrote:
mchoraji wrote:TEA is turning to something that I am not used to.May the new guys realize that there is a lot of un-truths being peddled around.We cannot be bringing every rumour we have read in every crazy blog or foreign media here.We may just turn TEA into a moshene (wolokoso for Crane, Spartan & co.) peddling site. I think bwana Crane's rules should be observed kabisa.

ole Nkarei wrote: Media has never, and will never, be credible originators of Information - Media takes information and accelerates its dissemination, not create it. And that is the tragedy of the Media Reporting about the Westgate Mall Assault. So that in their eagerness to seem informed and intelligent, Kenya Media, as in all other critical times of our Nation, have swallowed hook-line-and-sinker cleverly seeded intelligence morsels planted by both the Alkebaab /AlKaida and supposedly "friendly" Western forces.
Flying Crane wrote:
5. on military issue comprehend the fact between the right to know vs the need know.
i second you mchoraji. there will always be rumours but they always belong at nipate.this is amore intellectual and informative forum, not aplace to confirm social media rumours

Certainly the mongrels from Jamii are having unbashed 'canal knowledge' with this blog - pontificating a superiority of worldliness informed of a superficialy-inculcated western enculturalization. Poorly-crated disinformation plots in some Newspapers long known to propagate /accelerate the Military-Political-Commercial justifications for American & European World Hegemony (The Guardian, FT, New York Times, Washingston Post, etc - "Saddam Hussein and his Huge Stockpiles of WDA, 911 was a Taliban Plot, and lotsa other long-discredited Intelligence-seeded "News Scoops"), in a growing nexus with our own (CNN)Jonathan Mann-type-wannabe local pseudo-journalists, have become Gospel Truths against which all other information is held up to proof! Twentieth Century War History is replete with this sort of naked manipulation of world citizenry. By and from the very same Vector.

Hell, a fella might as well just mop around the Mess with a pack of chilledTusker Malts for company, guys, for all the good it does posting rebuttals in TEA these days. And sadly, it isn't about 'an erosion of trust in the Uniforms" - hamna!! That we can together deal with, eventually, I dare say.

For the Record, and as @Obienga deftly intimates, i reckon fellas here must determine for themselves what beef they take home to feed on, and at whose shoulder to fight on - simple as that, really. As for All of me and my "House"....

@Vitruvian - bro,you knew it just as well as I do - no whorehousetype catfights for this fella, aiseeii!

Guest Fri Oct 11 2013, 09:14

Allow me to append a post I made on 27th Sept - there is a hell of a lot more that I could append to it, that would not substantially alter or detract from the gist of what is contained already. I beg for intelligent circumspection in analysis of this international cluster-feck at the Westgate Mall, if the basis is from Media Reports, whether formal, gutter, "International", whatever - is really William Pike of the Star Newspaper a strange phenomena to anyone here?

Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)
ole Nkarei on Fri Sep 27 2013, 13:38

Comms - Every Formation, and breaking down further within that formation, has a secure segregated Net. For purposes that you can well appreciate. But the Ops Centre has integration of all these Nets, and at each level of Command withing the Formation Commanders have capacity to surf between Nets but only with justification and for purposes of Command. Dont believe the garbage Newspapers are spewing about confusion of Comms - hell, no self-respecting Command will deploy without establishing & securing Comms, it is primary and so basic as to be equivalent to breathing. Hakuna. The blue-on-blue that resulted in the KIA of the GSU Commander has nothing to do with confusion - it was sadly expedient and integral to the evolution of the Combat Planning - usiniulize mengine juu hiyo!

As for SOCOM on Theatre - SOCOM-COS, G2 and G3 plus their integral CQB, were on site within hours of the Westgate Maneno jump-off - Standard Procedures. Remember that constitutionally, the National Police Service had jurisdiction both in sorting out domestic security threats, or calling in the Military for Support. In this event, Command completely shifts to the Military - dont believe the nonsense about the IG having Command of the SOCOM Westgate Mall Operations, NEVER can happen!!

First Military responders were those unfortunate and brave rookies thrown into the depth right out of Basic. But the 20th were soon after deployed on peripheral perimeter to support the Recce boys commencing their sweeps - and that should have worked alright until it became apparent the inordinate firepower & destruction ability & wilingness, Military-type organisation, situational awareness, the sheer brutality that Alkaida manifested at close of Day 1. By the morning, of Day 2 the first SOCOM brutes (CDU/SBS)deployed, which you all saw with unguarded visages getting off Navy Landrovers at Theatre. During all this time, planning for the eventual take-over of Theatre by SOCOM (Infra-red / X-ray and Thermal mapping, Microwave shutdown, Building Plans, Internal System surveillance, simulation on-site, a hell of a lot of preps went into this thing) at remained was an execution of the Assault Plan.

How many Colors were on Theatre?

RDU/AP, GSU H/Q Co, City-wide Flying Squad, Special Crimes Unit, GD/Blues from Westlands areas, Kenya Police Reserves Muhindis, Langata 7th, Embakasi 50th Rotaries, KAF; specialist elements the Ruiri GSU/Recce in near-full-Company, and the Gigil 20th. About a dozen unarmed BATUK fellas on rotation and others Foreign Uniforms with AMISOM on furlow; finally yours-truly - 30th with both the 'wanamaji' na pia 'wale wengine". Thrown in Marines from their Embassy Security, Mossad, G2/G3 of the IDF, UPDF in Observer mode, hell, everyone was there with a radio Comm set!! How could anyone in their right minds not have sorted out Comms in such a mix of brutal and angry armed-to-the-teeth killers? Dont believe media stories, bro.

ole Nkarei

livefire Fri Oct 11 2013, 09:43

i believe every naysayers in this issue has the benefit of doubt that external comm sources presented the true version of events, i rarely pop up within this walls, i prefer lurking around, but honestly Onkarei, did KDF just miss a competent information desk to deflate all this easy to steer clear madness.

At the onset of Operation Linda Nchi, the KDF were on the verge of losing the propaganda war until when the able Col. Oguna stood up, the morale within the forces was always high, but for some reason back home, the public was sceptical, homeland support was fading and one man Col. Oguna brought it back. Only when Col. Oguna spoke did the masses get assurance KDF were on the move and all well.

in a weired new fashion, for four days Ole Lenku was in control of all floors, for four days while in control there was sustained gunfight, on the fourth day, west gate caves in, which in essence caved in on the third day at 1pm there bouts.

no one is criticizing KDF, we all wish her well, they represent the Creme in the Kenyan armed Corps.#Salute to them.
Civiees (i included) just hope for a transparent and more competent in house sorting of future disasters, and it starts with information/propaganda management.

Olekoima Fri Oct 11 2013, 11:48

livefire wrote:i believe every naysayers in this issue has the benefit of doubt that external comm sources presented the true version of events, i rarely pop up within this walls, i prefer lurking around, but honestly Onkarei, did KDF just miss a competent information desk to deflate all this easy to steer clear madness.

At the onset of Operation Linda Nchi, the KDF were on the verge of losing the propaganda war until when the able Col. Oguna stood up, the morale within the forces was always high, but for some reason back home, the public was sceptical, homeland support was fading and one man Col. Oguna brought it back. Only when Col. Oguna spoke did the masses get assurance KDF were on the move and all well.

in a weired new fashion, for four days Ole Lenku was in control of all floors, for four days while in control there was sustained gunfight, on the fourth day, west gate caves in, which in essence caved in on the third day at 1pm there bouts.

no one is criticizing KDF, we all wish her well, they represent the Creme in the Kenyan armed Corps.#Salute to them.
Civiees (i included) just hope for a transparent and more competent in house sorting of future disasters, and it starts with information/propaganda management.

I wouldn't like to blame anyone, but i must say i was greatly appalled by the way Ole Lenku handled the whole communication manenos. He was outright incompetent and appeared rather confused. I think we need to have a competent government spokesman who can be tasked to handle all government communications and briefs.
While on Westgate issues, it is time the government invested heavily on NIS complete with giving it teeth and muscle to act on would be trouble makers. Second, this outfit must be apolitical and focus specifically on the wider national good. State security MUST never be compromised.

Gallahad Fri Oct 11 2013, 12:20

I agree with you @livefire, kdf should tell their story, the absence of which creates a vaccum. Speculation, half-truth and propaganda currently occupy this space.

Observer Fri Oct 11 2013, 13:38

Gallahad wrote:I agree with you @livefire, kdf should tell their story, the absence of which creates a vaccum. Speculation, half-truth and propaganda currently occupy this space.

the Guardian story, like the many competing for views has gaps, there have been accounts from people who were held hostage http://www.trending.co.ke/pray_for_punita-264896969.html that seem conveniently left out… they talk of armed private security guards escorting a CIT vehicle… I thought the AP do this, and do we have armed security guards within our private security companies? There were also reports of the mixed band of police and vigilantes having killed one of the attackers (injured and died in hospital) other accounts also indicated the SAS off duty guy had killed two of the attackers… and SF had no night vision equipment available, really? …and if indeed the decision to bring down the roof was made with US Israeli and I don’t know who else providing supposed consultation, shouldn’t everyone agree it sufficed… it seems indirectly the guardian is saying they got the information from the foreign agents in the room… and I doubt we’ll get the true down low from the press… we do need a critical analysis on this one, not the maneno being spread by the media…
…on Information or deception I do agree with some members that there is need for a concerted and strategic counter information, GOK/KDF (whoever is in charge) need to tighten their act…the western media particularly seem unrelenting in their quest to paint Westgate as a failure and the lack of counter information is not helping, our local press of course is lost in the midst of all this…of concern are the many “unnamed” sources that seem to conveniently appear within articles whenever a new angle is created and our own local media is then rehashing such stories at a rate faster than any standard assault rifle...basically there’s a legion out there with little understanding of terror related issues and their geo-political dynamics, very little understanding of military/police rules of engagement and standard operating procedures, very little in terms of facts about what actually went down and an uncanny appetite for any rumour that can be milked for audience attention… this may eventually fade out as many other such events do in Kenya but in the current frame it needs some strategic attention…

Is it a coincidence that Amina fires a salvo over No.1 not going to Europe immediately after he has a meeting with a US top official… and suddenly Somalia “Imeiva” and every one wants some action… and the does the West suddenly seem comfortable with No.1… interesting debate in the House of Commons ... http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmhansrd/cm131009/halltext/131009h0001.htm#13100951000001

mchoraji Fri Oct 11 2013, 14:28

Observer wrote:
Is it a coincidence that Amina fires a salvo over No.1 not going to Europe immediately after he has a meeting with a US top official… and suddenly Somalia “Imeiva” and every one wants some action… and the does the West suddenly seem comfortable with No.1… interesting debate in the House of Commons ... http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmhansrd/cm131009/halltext/131009h0001.htm#13100951000001

Been thinking the same thing.What if the Western powers plotted the whole thing so that they may start dealing with U.K (wa kenya) without egg on the face & so that ''only essential contact'' can be discarded? Kenya is not Sudan, these guys are so entangled in our economy, security e.t.c not to deal with the guys in power.

Risasi Fri Oct 11 2013, 16:43

first thing, humble and respectifully said, Col Oguna was doing his job and not that he stood up for KDF. he might have done it with a passion but it was his job.

second, guys tafadhalini all ops are prone to cockups even if rehearsed and prepared as much as you could possible have it ends up failing or not as you expected it to be.
at times life send you curved balls and that's it, and during the heat of the moment you make discussions that in hindsight looks clumsy. the westgate mall seem to be one of those situations for the KDF

a good example is theMoscow theater hostage crisis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis , Russian pump in sleeping gas, the idea work well but they forgot to bring along the anti dote , the hostages died in their sleep. out of 850 hostages , 130 hostages died due to negligence.
so at time you might have a good and well oiled elaborated plan but it justs happens not to be your day.

Muratina Fri Oct 11 2013, 20:29

Risasi wrote:first thing, humble and respectifully said, Col Oguna was doing his job and not that he stood up for KDF. he might have done it with a passion but it was his job.

second, guys tafadhalini all ops are prone to cockups even if rehearsed and prepared as much as you could possible have it ends up failing or not as you expected it to be.
at times life send you curved balls and that's it, and during the heat of the moment you make discussions that in hindsight looks clumsy. the westgate mall seem to be one of those situations for the KDF

a good example is theMoscow theater hostage crisis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis , Russian pump in sleeping gas, the idea work well but they forgot to bring along the anti dote , the hostages died in their sleep. out of 850 hostages , 130 hostages died due to negligence.
so at time you might have a good and well oiled elaborated plan but it justs happens not to be your day.

I agree with Risasi on this.Nobody is immune to cockups, the most important thing is what a country chooses to do afterwards. Even the worlds superpowers have messed up ops...the russians had the Moscow theater hostage crisis and beslan massacre, the yanks had the Iranian hostage crisis where their elite forces couldnt even reach their targets, the germans had the munich games. What is notable in all these mess ups is that the relevant units turned the weaknesses that had hampered the ops into strengths. Im pretty sure lessons have been learned in westgate and if we end up forgetting, we only have ourselves to blame.

Muratina Fri Oct 11 2013, 21:06

http://movies.yahoo.com/news/30-000-went-missing-amid-rescue-capt-phillips-072229059.html Interesting story. Apparently 30,000$ went missing after seals rescued capt. philips from pirates....but we all know only african soldiers 'loot' not SEALs so nothing to see here..move along everyone Shocked

Risasi Fri Oct 11 2013, 21:33

the second and final part
gentleman don,t take these things easy. its a bad kept secret it all started with hydrocarbons and the partitioning of the better part of Somalia which also has a reasonable amount of oil. therefore after Man UK differs with the west because he has a case at ICC court. he tries to us the Hydrocarbon deal as a bargaining chip out of the ICC. the west doesn't yield, Man UK decides to play the ACE card, invites China into the banquet.

baado ndugu zanguni we are yet to see the dollar get 100ksh, labour strikes unrest, tribal and religious wars etc. I can 100% post hapa that Man UKs tenure will be made the most difficult and unpopular by foreign hands because of his actions and the direction. thats the main aim of the game: punish Man Uk for his action.the best we can do is to stop infights cause that's part of the objective.

its typical for west to punish when you don't dance their tunes: right now , I didn't want to bring it hapa an ideal example is this man Walter Barasa. walter barasa worked for/with the ICC until the affair went sour . those in the know , know that, he opted out for whatever reasons and now his going to pay. walter was linked with revealing ICC witness names to the gov,t after he fell out with bensuda and Co.

the ICC issues a warrant of a rest to barasa without following procedures. serving court summon, followed by a trials and lastly an arrest warrant if he dosn,t show up after or during the trial. Barasa should be assumed innocent until proven in court ama? why the premature arrest warrant??

countersniper Sat Oct 12 2013, 08:20

Risasi wrote:the second and final part
gentleman don,t take these things easy. its a bad kept secret it all started with hydrocarbons and the partitioning of the better part of Somalia which also has a reasonable amount of oil. therefore after Man UK differs with the west because he has a case at ICC court. he tries to us the Hydrocarbon deal as a bargaining chip out of the ICC. the west doesn't yield, Man UK decides to play the ACE card, invites China into the banquet.

baado ndugu zanguni we are yet to see the dollar get 100ksh, labour strikes unrest, tribal and religious wars etc. I can 100% post hapa that Man UKs tenure will be made the most difficult and unpopular by foreign hands because of his actions and the direction. thats the main aim of the game: punish Man Uk for his action.the best we can do is to stop infights cause that's part of the objective.

its typical for west to punish when you don't dance their tunes: right now , I didn't want to bring it hapa an ideal example is this man Walter Barasa. walter barasa worked for/with the ICC until the affair went sour . those in the know , know that, he opted out for whatever reasons and now his going to pay.  walter was linked with revealing ICC witness names to the gov,t after he fell out with bensuda and Co.

the ICC issues a warrant of a rest to barasa without following  procedures. serving court summon, followed by a trials and lastly an arrest warrant if he dosn,t show up after or during the trial. Barasa should be assumed innocent until proven in court ama? why the premature arrest warrant??

risasi before writing about barasa and ICC you better find out the connection between the so called media company   mediamax, mr barasa and others.

the icc maneno and things facing east ?am not in the know    but we can discuss if we find out who was sending BARASA as a stringer journalist to search for those witnesses in the name of investigative journalism.
do we know who owns mediamax and its fronting operations? why did they quickly disown Barasa when ICC came calling?

anyway I THINK its better to keep ooff ICC UNTIL THE SHIT HITS THE FAN.

countersniper Sat Oct 12 2013, 08:23

risasi before writing about barasa and ICC you better find out the connection between the so called media company mediamax, mr barasa and others.

the icc maneno and things facing east ?am not in the know but we can discuss if we find out who was sending BARASA as a stringer journalist to search for those witnesses in the name of investigative journalism.
do we know who owns mediamax and its fronting operations? why did they quickly disown Barasa when ICC came calling?

anyway I THINK its better to keep ooff ICC UNTIL THE SHIT HITS THE FAN.

Risasi Sat Oct 12 2013, 13:40

countersniper wrote:risasi before writing about barasa and ICC you better find out the connection between the so called media company mediamax, mr barasa and others.

the icc maneno and things facing east ?am not in the know but we can discuss if we find out who was sending BARASA as a stringer journalist to search for those witnesses in the name of investigative journalism.
do we know who owns mediamax and its fronting operations? why did they quickly disown Barasa when ICC came calling?

anyway I THINK its better to keep ooff ICC UNTIL THE SHIT HITS THE FAN.

i didn't understand your post Mr CS. i used the Barasa case as an example on a western fallout and suit punishment. no maneno ya east hapo.

short summary
what i understand is there was a triangle between Bensouda, icc witness' and barassa. at one point barasa jumped ship to KE gov,t (here meaning Uhuruto) for either the sake of money, or because he decide it would be better to work in tandem with uhuruto for HIS PERSONAL BETTER FUTURE he knows better.thereafter he reveals some ICC withness name to uhuruto the trio decides because Barasa knows those withness he should try to compromise the them with money to step out of the ICC maneno. and indeed some of the witness do withdraw either for the sake of money or for fact that SERIKALI now knows them. are we together up to that point? bensuda who has bad Blood against barasa, now wants to try him. the PLAINTIFF Twisted Evil

is the prosecutor hatobowi ndugu yangu if his taken to the Hague Laughing

according to barassa's statement he says he was approached by bensuda and Co but fell out with them due to moral issues. the Co was coaching witness on what and how to present themselves at the ICC.

anyway i was using it a an example on western fallout and suit punishments
sawa ndugu

Risasi Sat Oct 12 2013, 14:36

Muratina wrote:
Risasi wrote:first thing, humble and respectifully said, Col Oguna was doing his job and not that he stood up for KDF. he might have done it with a passion but it was his job.

second, guys tafadhalini all ops are prone to cockups even if rehearsed and prepared as much as you could possible have it ends up failing or not as you expected it to be.
at times life send you curved balls and that's it, and during the heat of the moment you make discussions that in hindsight looks clumsy. the westgate mall seem to be one of those situations for the KDF

a good example is theMoscow theater hostage crisis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis , Russian pump in sleeping gas, the idea work well but they forgot to bring along the anti dote , the hostages died in their sleep. out of 850 hostages , 130 hostages died due to negligence.
so at time you might have a good and well oiled elaborated plan but it justs happens not to be your day.
I agree with Risasi on this.Nobody is immune to cockups, the most important thing is what a country chooses to do afterwards. Even the worlds superpowers have messed up ops...the russians had the Moscow theater hostage crisis and beslan massacre, the yanks had the Iranian hostage crisis where their elite forces couldnt even reach their targets, the germans had the munich games. What is notable in all these mess ups is that the relevant units turned the weaknesses that had hampered the ops into strengths. Im pretty sure lessons have been learned in westgate and if we end up forgetting, we only have ourselves to blame.

you nailed it on the head mratish and the countries you mentioned are superpowers that train day in day out for those situations.
i have seen air rookies training for emergency air failures with enthusiasm but when the real thing comes they develop cold feet mpaka unashanga... so lets give allowance for failures. a mistake is not a mistake until you refuse to correct it.

Kobooz Sat Oct 12 2013, 18:17

A bit off topic but: A couple of predictions point to 90% chances the US economy might collapse between now and 2020. Lets just note it somewhere and watch!

nyukilized Sat Oct 12 2013, 23:26

Kobooz wrote:A bit off topic but: A couple of predictions point to 90% chances the US economy might collapse between now and 2020. Lets just note it somewhere and watch!

It collapsed a long time ago...... they are just not done with their wealth confiscation program. Think of the wealth confiscation/that was striped off the middle and low class citizens in the last "economic meltdown" through property/home foreclosure, re possession etc. Listened in horror yesterday on the radio that there are senior citizens (retirees) who are still refinancing their already paid off homes..... The program is working quite efficiently and of course ruthlessly.

They shook down the public for all their savings and then turn around and have them pay for it again through their taxes/bank bailouts. The sub-prime loans are still being dished out like candy and will soon be coming to a screen near you. Africa has ONE last chance of self redemption, otherwise... Its game over and back to the labor camps for all of us.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.... we are just mere simpletons........

mogen Sun Oct 13 2013, 08:07

Muratina wrote:http://movies.yahoo.com/news/30-000-went-missing-amid-rescue-capt-phillips-072229059.html Interesting story. Apparently 30,000$ went missing after seals rescued capt. philips from pirates....but we all know only african soldiers 'loot' not SEALs so nothing to see here..move along everyone

Sir, this is a very worrying explanation because two wrongs never make a right. That the SEALS stole $30,000 matters precious little since they are no one's moral standard. In fact, citing the SEALS' heist does not make it any better when we hear that KDF soldiers stole.

shame

Guest Sun Oct 13 2013, 13:16

It is not my place to defend the KDF on TEA or elsewhere. But I am outraged by the untypically sanctimonious penchant of Kenyans (and typically so by our forcefully enculturalised black-Mzungus) to denigrate our institutions with accusations without fact nor balance simply because some Mzungu has so stated in what we all know to be Mzungu's Media Mouthpieces for Official propaganda.

What, pray tell, is the evidence that KDF Soldiers pillaged and robbed the Westgate Mall? And even if it were so, how can this possibly justify the endless unwholesome villification of the KDF? I took nothing from the Mall, and witnessed nothing to validate these scurrilious accusations at all. While we might not all know the results of the investigations underway, the truth needs to be established before we can all go to town with these serious accuations of a thieving-KDF, aisseeii!

Satan desecrated Heaven and in consequence was expelled with his band of Angels what supported his mutinous conduct. Heaven & the Goodness of God & His Host remains unadulterated and complete even without the "fallen" Angels. Because Heaven & the Goodness of God & His Host are not monolithic single-cell edifice but a complex multidimensional organism we are yet to comprehend.

In similar vein albeit without similar dimensions, the KDF, as indeed are most organised Militaries, is similarly not a monolithic Single-cell Organism. And while the ideal that "the least amongst us defines us" applies to any such organism, it remains nonetheless a ideal.

countersniper Sun Oct 13 2013, 17:01

i still insist the KDF should go full out find these guys and kill or capture these guys... but i prefer to bomb them to hell

on another note it seems the CiC will not be turning up at the Hague after all.

MasterChief Sun Oct 13 2013, 21:17

Please tell us how certain electronic gadgets like laptops and phones ended up in the hands of an electronics vendor who happens to reside in gilgil a well known military town?

But even after the vendor tells the whole world that he got the stuff from some uniforms he was still thrown in jail and accused of stealing.

We know nobody will be punished for looting leave alone sleeping on the job. Even the guys who looted a burning airport were never punished. Thats how we operate.

This corruption, impunity and lack of patrotism is the reason why its so easy for the bad guys to corrupt and penetrate the country.

For a small fee you can get an id, passport or any document. Thats bad

mogen Mon Oct 14 2013, 04:02

countersniper wrote:i still insist the KDF should go full out find these guys and kill or capture these guys... but i prefer to bomb them to hell

on another note it seems the CiC will not be turning up at the Hague after all.

Saw it coming a long time ago. Signal first seen at a campaign rally in Nakuru and we are now back there. Interesting times are ahead.

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