Re: Kenya Defence Force

countersniper Tue Feb 14 2012, 23:13

Vitruvian wrote:Tom, perhaps you would be willing to give us a brief lesson in the naming convention or formation nomenclature used by KDF.
For example (source Wikipedia), the Infantry has 6 battalions - 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 and 15. The Paras are 20 battalion, Air Cavalry is 50, there is a 77 artillery battalion and a 78 and 81 tank battalion, among others.
What happens to the numbers in-between?

I think to understand how the different formations were formed you need to read the history of the armed forces from the time Kenya become a British colony and the military formations started in 1890AD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenya_Defence_Forces#Kenya_Army_formations

BUT you will notice that 1st,3rd,5th and 7th battalions have a history dating before independence, while 9th and 15thbatalions,50th air cavalry 77th artillery,78tank,81st tank were all formed between 1976 to 1989 when moi was in power.
the youngest battalions are the 9th 15th ..and before the formation of the specialist 20 para battalion..5th Kenya rifles otherwise known as support Battalion was meant to be the creme la creme of hard men who could be deployed to do any task to support the others
generally the 3rd batalion based at kahawa was once largely called transport or logistics battalion,while 7th battalion at langata is largely an infantry unit....etc.
so each battalion was designed for specific purposes
other in between formations are not yet full strength eg 10th,11th ,12th engineer battalions
but i an no expert on this ..so lets see what others will come up with

cylon Tue Feb 14 2012, 23:18

jasiri wrote:
cylon wrote:Okay guys on the vision 2030 stuff im going to elaborate later on the steps we need to take yes i agree on giant steps but we are pushig for somethung to be done right so the vision is here in 12 years or less and its possible i will elaborate on the details later.

Im gonna now start a debate on the kenyan navy part on the purchase of the jasiri naval vessel. The jasiri frigate or research ship was very costly ship. the last five or 6 years it has been sitting in a dock in spain wasting away while it should be doing its part protecting our territorial waters. But you see the better option for our navy once they recieve the jasiri would be for them to put up several orders to america's ghost fleet of destroyers, frigates and even aircraft carriers, etc because most of the ships are like 10 to 20 years old just wasting away in dockyards not in use so if our government can take advantage of this because obama is president we can purchase these ships at a throw away price would increase the naval power of east africa to make sure that kenyan ships patrol the gulf of aden not american and french ships. I dont know if any of you know the admiral of the kenyan navy but if you do pass the message along.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_reserve_fleets

This is a link to all united states locations of its ghost fleets they even got unused subs.

Cyclone my brother, you are one man full of contradictions. So the Jasiri was expensive, what do we do about it? We buy an even more expensive fleet of frigates destroyers, aircraft carriers ( this one had me in stitches)? Research a little on naval operations. For every 'new' ship we would buy from them, we would require to put them through extensive modifications. New ship borne electronics, possible refits to the super structure, definitely a change of the populsion system, trainning of the crew for the new ship, construction of new berths and related facilities at the various Dock bases of the Kenya Navy etc. now how would that be cheaper? Aircraft carrier you say? hehehe, lets try and figure out how much it may cost to operate a carrier. A prime case would be the USS Saipan i believe. This is an Amphib support ship that can be modified to carrier status. ok lets go about it. let's install a ski jump-because that ship is to small for an angled deck CATOBAR config-, change the main propulsion machinery, Electronics(combat data systems, radar et all), weapons (CIWS etc), counter meausures etc. ESTIMATE THE COST OF THAT.
a step further, lets train the crew. The Saipan displaces about 28000 tons almost same as a fully loaded INS Viraat, so lets estimate a crew of about 1000 ppl. ESTIMATE THAT
After trainning, lets buy them their toys, around 30 warplanes and about 16 helicopters (anti sub, commando, sar and early warning) ESTIMATE THAT
then lets fuel the ship and planes, supply it with food meds etc. ESTIMATE THAT
Lets also take into account the cost of the few planes that will miss the ship and tumble into the sea or crash on the deck. ESTIMATE THAT.
After all that is done, lets estimate the cost of the escort fleet. You do know an aircarrier has to have escorts right? typical composition is an hunter killer sub, a frigate, two anti air destroyers, two anti sub destroyers and a support ship plus the training for the crew. ESTIMATE THAT! Do you think Kenya can manage the total cost of all that my friend?

Someone here said there's a difference between visions and dreams. what are yours?

Yes the cost of owning an aircraft carrier is expensive but i already knew that thats why i suggested also frigates and destroyers.

Jasiri my brother all kenya would need are frigates and two destroyers not an aircraft carrier and the american ghost fleet has been fully upgraded so they can awakened in a time of need thats why there are in reserve if we just take the advantage we could dominate the seas in east africa. KENYA is about 20 years away from an aircraft carrier. but i was reading here that somebody said kenya would acquire subs which is a unlikely possibility because that is also 20 years away when we begin to flex our global muscle.

countersniper Tue Feb 14 2012, 23:56

you are right about aircraft carrier.
no way Kenya can sustain one carrier..in the first place...the entrance of port of Mombasa is not big enough and deep enough to take full sizer carrier whose displacement s more than 70thousand tons dwt.
and also our Kenya navy personnel are just enough to staff an entire carrier and none will be left to do anything else.
we are more than thirty years away to operate a carrier and submarine. infect we don't need any of these type of assets now ..maybe after fifty years.

Guest Tue Feb 14 2012, 23:58

What I'm asking is where are the 2, 4, 6, 8, 10-14, 16-19, 21-40, 51-76, 79-80 battalions, etc.? I do not assume that 80 (pre- or post-colonial) battalions exist/have existed because there is an 81 tank battalion. By what formula are the numbers designated? There must be a system of nomenclature for the formations.

countersniper wrote:
Vitruvian wrote:Tom, perhaps you would be willing to give us a brief lesson in the naming convention or formation nomenclature used by KDF.
For example (source Wikipedia), the Infantry has 6 battalions - 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 and 15. The Paras are 20 battalion, Air Cavalry is 50, there is a 77 artillery battalion and a 78 and 81 tank battalion, among others.
What happens to the numbers in-between?
ole Nkarei wrote:Vitruvian, pls be clearer - several branches to your query, mate!

I think to understand how the different formations were formed you need to read the history of the armed forces from the time Kenya become a British colony and the military formations started in 1890AD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenya_Defence_Forces#Kenya_Army_formations

BUT you will notice that 1st,3rd,5th and 7th battalions have a history dating before independence, while 9th and 15thbatalions,50th air cavalry 77th artillery,78tank,81st tank were all formed between 1976 to 1989 when moi was in power.
the youngest battalions are the 9th 15th ..and before the formation of the specialist 20 para battalion..5th Kenya rifles otherwise known as support Battalion was meant to be the creme la creme of hard men who could be deployed to do any task to support the others
generally the 3rd batalion based at kahawa was once largely called transport or logistics battalion,while 7th battalion at langata is largely an infantry unit....etc.
so each battalion was designed for specific purposes
other in between formations are not yet full strength eg 10th,11th ,12th engineer battalions
but i an no expert on this ..so lets see what others will come up with

countersniper Wed Feb 15 2012, 00:13

Vitruvian wrote:What I'm asking is where are the 2, 4, 6, 8, 10-14, 16-19, 21-40, 51-76, 79-80 battalions, etc.? I do not assume that 80 (pre- or post-colonial) battalions exist/have existed because there is an 81 tank battalion. By what formula are the numbers designated? There must be a system of nomenclature for the formations.

countersniper wrote:
Vitruvian wrote:Tom, perhaps you would be willing to give us a brief lesson in the naming convention or formation nomenclature used by KDF.
For example (source Wikipedia), the Infantry has 6 battalions - 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 and 15. The Paras are 20 battalion, Air Cavalry is 50, there is a 77 artillery battalion and a 78 and 81 tank battalion, among others.
What happens to the numbers in-between?
ole Nkarei wrote:Vitruvian, pls be clearer - several branches to your query, mate!

I think to understand how the different formations were formed you need to read the history of the armed forces from the time Kenya become a British colony and the military formations started in 1890AD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenya_Defence_Forces#Kenya_Army_formations

BUT you will notice that 1st,3rd,5th and 7th battalions have a history dating before independence, while 9th and 15thbatalions,50th air cavalry 77th artillery,78tank,81st tank were all formed between 1976 to 1989 when moi was in power.
the youngest battalions are the 9th 15th ..and before the formation of the specialist 20 para battalion..5th Kenya rifles otherwise known as support Battalion was meant to be the creme la creme of hard men who could be deployed to do any task to support the others
generally the 3rd batalion based at kahawa was once largely called transport or logistics battalion,while 7th battalion at langata is largely an infantry unit....etc.
so each battalion was designed for specific purposes
other in between formations are not yet full strength eg 10th,11th ,12th engineer battalions
but i an no expert on this ..so lets see what others will come up with

all i can tell you is that 2,4,6, and 8 were designated for battalions( KAR ) kings african rifles.etc outside Kenya, ie either in tz or Uganda,sudan and malawi during the colonial days.
about how they arrive at formations numbers designations....only the big wigs at DOD can tell us

areba Wed Feb 15 2012, 00:25

fusebox wrote:You, him & her, are all under the same flawed assumption that the "final solution" is to "brute force scale" all input magnitudes and voila!

Far from it my brother, I have been down that road before. That woman that told you she would bring in more developers was simply a project manager. You know the type that believes nine women can make a baby in a month.....

That notwithstanding, many developers would definately make work light, and if your gantt was agile enough. But thats another matter altogether and i would not want to get involved in a spat over code. I believe ive had enough of that to last me two lifetimes. The problem of laying a pipeline (which is what we were talking about from the start) is linear. Assuming all other factors (logistics, mobilization of raw materials...e.t.c ) two operators can take half the time of one, ten can take a tenth the time of one... which would logically mean that an infinitesimally large number of contractors each laying a kilometer can lay the pipeline in a week. (ALL OTHER FACTORS REMAINING CONSTANT).

Guest Wed Feb 15 2012, 03:14

OLN is in three Sectors, as you all know, of Gedo, Middle Juba and Lower Juba; KDF also running recon-in-force in parts of Bakool, Bay and lower Shabelle. KDF Air-force and Air-calv daily sorties and surgical strikes as far north-east as Benadir and parts of Bakool, Hiiran and middle Shabelle.

Now, some clever man in the UNSC decides that KDF- North Sector cedes GEDO-right-up-to-Wajir to Uganda/Burundi and lumps Gedo with Bay, Bakool (Baidoa) and western Hiiran in a half-brigade Command as Sector 3!! scratch

Uganda/Burundi also takes Sector 1 which is Benadir, middle and lower Shabelle in Division-strength. Djibouti with a Battalion in Sector 4 -Western Hiiran, Galguduug, and Mudug.

Now, take a hard look at this map on this link. Minister for KDF quips that OLN must close successfully before we can rehat! Now you know why!!

http://reliefweb.int/sites/reliefweb.int/files/resources/206E10D488FE49328525722800659AF6-wfp_REF_som061031.pdf

Olekoima Wed Feb 15 2012, 08:03

ole Nkarei wrote:@Countersniper - I am not the Cop here, and I don't wanna take sides, but I am afraid Jas weighs a lot heavier with a lot of us here ( not to mean you are bad, buddy), we've known him longer, never fired a shot in anger here; lotsa of us respect his opinion a hell of a lot. It is possible you misread his post, and that in my books gives you a healthy benefit of doubt, brother. Why don't we just let this slide, and get back to shooting range again, fellas. Tafadhali!

@Livefire - in terms of payload, depth of aggressor-ability, fire-platform and such-like functions of a "Gunship", the Z-9w is way beyond the MD500. Tis an upgrade by whatever considerations.

@Olekoima - if you recall when the MD500 came, the entire region was awash with Armored aggressor-profiles for which Kenya lacked a effective counter beyond the 77 Units Mk3. Doctrine then started developing and the immediate priority was an Air-Ground-Defense shield that was rapidly deployeable, effective / effecient in ordnance delivery and multi-functional /versatile. Stop those Sudan Tanks to the greatest depth inside Sudan. So - the MD500 and some air-lift choppers. But your car must have five tyres in your car, and when you lose one, you must get replacement to have the five allatime!! Loses of the MD500 are exaggerated, and as for cannibalization? - that is an internet gossip, far as I know. There are 55 Units of variants of fully operational MD500 at this minute in Kenya.

Satified. Thanks for the info.

vince Wed Feb 15 2012, 08:36

ole Nkarei wrote:.

Now, take a hard look at this map on this link. Minister for KDF quips that OLN must close successfully before we can rehat! Now you know why!!

@ON, Do you mind breaking it down a little. asante.

Guest Wed Feb 15 2012, 08:59

@Olekoima - Just think with me about this for a moment, bro. Why Cannibalise a critical component of your National Defense? (a) because the country is broke cannot afford spares - then how in hell do you expect to keep that component effectively usable anyway? (b) there are no spares available anywhere - including your source supply? And for an inexpensive bird as commonplace as the MD500? With Civilian variants all over the globe? Eeeiish, bana!!(c) because your Military Planners & Brass are incompetent - in the name of Mt. Kirinyaga, how in hell are they charged of National Defense Planning? Why are they still keeping head atop their shoulders? Of course none of the above scenarios has ever pertained in Kenya. At least as far as I can tell.

You recall these birds came in just about the time the SPLA was relaunching in -force and giving someone a really bloody nose. Soon after Meles and his twin-brother are going hammer-and-tong at each other, persisting for over a decade of brick-braking each other. M7 saunters into Kampala making revolutionary noises and with odious contacts across East Africa. Said Barre gets shown the door not too soon after and Somalia implodes. The most critical Components of our National Defense, truth be told, during those early times were (i) the eff-five-tigers, (ii) the anti-tank deterrent, (iii) Defense and Equipment transfer pacts with Johnny and later Sammy, [b.](iv)[/b] Expansive National Economy. Everything else fell into line, including the Paratroopers and Air-lift, Armour, Recon capabilities, Intel and COIN preps, Command restructure, etc..

Of course the African is an incompetent gorilla ( not sure there is a ''competent gorilla''!!) who just cannot marry himself to technology, so that with time every equipment is progressive maintained from cannibalizing its sister-equipment, as those hoonkie so-called ''African Watchers / Journalists'' advise everyone listening around their various watering holes in capitals in Africa. Makes my head spin with righteous anger, bro!!

@Vince - OLN is about securing our national border ( Northern Transport Coridor from Lamu to Addis, Juba and on to Douala). So, kinda create a virtual Kenya-Somalia boundary that encompasses, Gedo, Middle and Lower Juba. Battress it through governance structures, subjugate to Kenya Economy with all the atttendant spill-over benefits, defend to depth by engaging the bloody mujaheedin as far away from Lamu, garissa, isiolo as possible. it is not about re-engineering the state of Somalia. This UNSC tasking order simply swats away our Strategic objectives in Somalia and makes nonsense of OLN, by transferring from KDF GEDO to Uganda/Burundi - it is probably intended to keep separate KDF and Ethiiopians now in Bakool, but still it sucks bigtime!! Take another shot at the map.

countersniper Wed Feb 15 2012, 09:26

so will OLN go along with this UNSC plan to subjugate to the hopeless ugabag brass in mogadishu?

Sierra Kilo Wed Feb 15 2012, 10:48

countersniper wrote:NOW wapi hii alshabab tutwange wao kabisa?

Thats the spirit bro!! Smile

Spartan Wed Feb 15 2012, 11:01

countersniper wrote:so will OLN go along with this UNSC plan to subjugate to the hopeless ugabag brass in mogadishu?

That's already settled, bro. But it's not like you think. Let me throw some light on the workings of AMISOM (using the example of Crazy Town as ole Nkarei likes to call it). The Burundians are under their own commanders, a Ugandan officer can't lead Burundian soldiers in battle and vice versa. Burundi has its own subsectors, as does UPDF. This has caused some problems although it takes care of 'national' concerns like yours countersniper. Remember when AMISOM lost 50 something troops in one day?

It turns out the overall commander (Ugandan) communicated the zero hour for attacking AS, which was about two days from the time of the communication. The Burundians said impossible, we won't be ready. After being put to task to explain what they needed to be 'ready', they relented and agreed on the zero hour. But come the appointed time, our brothers were'nt ready for a simultaneous attack. When UGABAG attacked AS positions, they withdrew and amassed infront of the Burundian sector. The rest is history.

As for the 'hopeless' UGABAG, you have a right to your opinions because they are just that, opinions. But you would do well to remember that UGABAG landed in Mogadishu when it was fully under the control of AS and fought street by street till they can now talk of an attack on Afgoye, 30km outside which is planned in the next days or few weeks. The Ugandan commanders Maj. Gen. Fred Mugisha and Col. Paul Lokech are good men with a lot of battle experience

I don't see anything wrong with UGABAG being commanded by a Kenyan
general on an international mission. If KDF don't like it, continue OLN
alongside AMISOM. That's what I would have preferred by the way, for KDF
to be able pound and hit them without the restrictions of AMISOM's
chapter 7 mandate.

Kenya Defence Force - Page 3 Amisom1

Maj. Gen. Fred Mugisha, his wife and Gen. Aronda Nyakairima on a previous pipping ceremony.

Kenya Defence Force - Page 3 Col-Paul-Lokech

Col. Paul Lokech

Kenya Defence Force - Page 3 XW8R8973%20ret%20pr

UGABAG during a street by street tussle with Al Shabaab

Guest Wed Feb 15 2012, 11:38

areba wrote:
fusebox wrote:You, him & her, are all under the same flawed assumption that the "final solution" is to "brute force scale" all input magnitudes and voila!
Far from it my brother, I have been down that road before. That woman that told you she would bring in more developers was simply a project manager. You know the type that believes nine women can make a baby in a month.....

That notwithstanding, many developers would definately make work light, and if your gantt was agile enough. But thats another matter altogether and i would not want to get involved in a spat over code. I believe ive had enough of that to last me two lifetimes. The problem of laying a pipeline (which is what we were talking about from the start) is linear. Assuming all other factors (logistics, mobilization of raw materials...e.t.c ) two operators can take half the time of one, ten can take a tenth the time of one... which would logically mean that an infinitesimally large number of contractors each laying a kilometer can lay the pipeline in a week. (ALL OTHER FACTORS REMAINING CONSTANT).

Anyway, lets see how the project's reality differs from the theories

Guest Wed Feb 15 2012, 11:50

Spartan wrote:

As for the 'hopeless' UGABAG, .........that UGABAG landed in Mogadishu when it was fully under the control of AS and fought street by street till they can now talk of an attack on Afgoye, 30km outside which is planned in the next days or few weeks. The Ugandan commanders Maj. Gen. Fred Mugisha and Col. Paul Lokech are good men with a lot of battle experience

I don't see anything wrong with UGABAG being commanded by a Kenyan general on an international mission. If KDF don't like it, continue OLN alongside AMISOM. That's what I would have preferred by the way, for KDF to be able pound and hit them without the restrictions of AMISOM's chapter 7 mandate.

@Spartan - cannot agree with you more, Spartan -you are spot on that denigrating subjective tags are not desirable now we shall be feeding off the same sufuria. By all estimations, UGAGAB has acquitted itself with great courage and honor in Crazy Town. Moreover, UGABAG is unequally yorked with the Burundians, (that is not to denigrate their sacrifice either) and this does show in combined Ops.

Please peruse through my post on the enhanced AMISOM Command Structure - it is basically (i) a Cordinating Central Command that reports to the Politicos and links up both the Main Sector Commands, and (ii) two very separate Field Commands that may cordinate certain aspects of tactical planning and execution. Nothing about shared or crossed Commands - i.e me commanding a fighting Regiment of UPDF into Bakool. Nah!

Mission definition and Rules of Engagement has also changed to VERY robust Peace Enforcement. More of the same KDF dancing about and less of the reactive manenos forced upon UGABAG in Crazy Town - now we all go hunting, with an open licence. But dammit, moving GEDO away from KDF-North Sector only serves certain rapacious long-nosed fellas, not Kenyana.

MWAURA Wed Feb 15 2012, 12:13

Btw, I hope you all have noticed smth amidst all this. Beyond the noise and heat of OLN its detractors and supporters is one of the most significant armed forces equipment upgrades seen in this part of the world,or possibly anywhere else for that matter.
How many air forces have ever upgraded their strike aircraft by 50 % in one go?
How many air cavs have done the same by at least 30 % in one go?
How many armoured forces have ever increased their recce/anti AFV capability ,(BRDM) so significantly?
How many navies have ever grown so much with months? There are still 3 ex-French gunboats to be delivered, with the lone blue water corvette,Jasiri expected any time. From 3 gunboats and 2 landing ships to 8 gunboats ,2 landing ships and 1 corvette is not a small leap.
History has been made here,fellas!
Kenya can dominate its sphere much more effectively than the other putative powers. SANDF, qualitatively is still operationally a shadow of the former SADF. The Naijja boys by all accounts performed poorly in ECOMOG and in fact some say prolonged both civil wars in Liberia and Sierra Leone.
I don't see either of them projecting themselves so robustly outside their borders soon.

Guest Wed Feb 15 2012, 12:40

Abit off topic pondering, I couldn't help but think, with AS having some interwebz savvy mujahedz,......do they read/peruse this thread?

Spartan Wed Feb 15 2012, 12:43

ole Nkarei wrote:Cordinating Central Command that reports to the Politicos and links up both the Main Sector Commands, and (ii) two very separate Field Commands that may cordinate certain aspects of tactical planning and execution.

'Cordinating' is the operative word there.You couldn't have summed it up better, bro. Agreed totally.

ole Nkarei wrote:But dammit, moving GEDO away from KDF-North Sector only serves certain rapacious long-nosed fellas, not Kenyana.

If they used any methodology, then it must have boiled down to projected numbers of each country in the proposed 17,000 AMISOM contingent. But it's Somalia, anything goes. So you could be right also.

Guest Wed Feb 15 2012, 12:57

moving GEDO away from KDF-North Sector only serves certain rapacious long-nosed fellas, not Kenyana.

@ ON, what to do about this?
Is there not a way of not letting them get away with it that easily? After all the sacrifices that have been made.
Any ideas people?

Minister for KDF quips that OLN must close successfully before we can rehat! Now you know why!!

How long will it take for it to close?

How are things likely to play out once OLN closes before KDF rehats to AMISOM?

Guest Wed Feb 15 2012, 13:30

@fusebox - of course they religiously peruse this and other Kenyan sites with a Military and or Intelligence slant. If you read certain posts critically you could probably pick out their contributions too.

@Spartan - this delineation had nothing to do with troops contribution to the new-look AMISOM of two Divisions. Hell, Gedo, Bakool, Bay and the rest of Sector 3 is alloted barely 2500 men -mixed Ugandan and Burundian with all the complications that results from this sort of mix!! Again, Bakool and GEDO is under the AWSJ who have a very uneasy cohabitation with TFG/UGABAG at present. Considering that KDF can easily stage from the Homeland to matriculate GEDO, this move lacks logic and rationality. No, it is a check-mate move to KDF. Smacks of new big-brotherhood from you-know-who, dammit!!

@Mwaura - hush, hush, man!! Let the sleeping dogs lie, O! But for certain, if you close your eyes, the Kenyana vision now becomes that much clearer.

@Rwigii - a delay in re-hating so as to complete OLN isn't disastrous, buddy. What we needed has been granted - the UNSC decision to re-hat. Because that pries open previously half-open doors to planned and needed procurement by (and cross-transfer of heavies equipment to) KDF, and moreover it permits us to pass the operational cost of OLN to UNSC. The so-called ''Enablers'' and ''Expanders'' are not coming to KDF via AMISOM, coz ''equipment-reimburshment'' robs KDF of the ownership and prerogative of use. With respect, UGABAG has no capacity to supplant AS in Sector three with two Battalions; so we carry on with OLN and quickly push the virtual border into GEDO as well.

Guest Wed Feb 15 2012, 20:12

so we carry on with OLN and quickly push the virtual border into GEDO as well.

Sounds good. I hope Johny and the rest won't spoil our party as we are about to partake. This is Africa really. Are we still colonized?

Guest Wed Feb 15 2012, 20:31

Yes. But that is what we strive to change. And not only on paper.

rwigi wrote:
so we carry on with OLN and quickly push the virtual border into GEDO as well.

Sounds good. I hope Johny and the rest won't spoil our party as we are about to partake. This is Africa really. Are we still colonized?

Risasi Thu Feb 16 2012, 11:40

MWAURA wrote:Btw, I hope you all have noticed smth amidst all this. Beyond the noise and heat of OLN its detractors and supporters is one of the most significant armed forces equipment upgrades seen in this part of the world,or possibly anywhere else for that matter.
How many air forces have ever upgraded their strike aircraft by 50 % in one go?
How many air cavs have done the same by at least 30 % in one go?
How many armoured forces have ever increased their recce/anti AFV capability ,(BRDM) so significantly?
How many navies have ever grown so much with months? There are still 3 ex-French gunboats to be delivered, with the lone blue water corvette,Jasiri expected any time. From 3 gunboats and 2 landing ships to 8 gunboats ,2 landing ships and 1 corvette is not a small leap.
History has been made here,fellas!
Kenya can dominate its sphere much more effectively than the other putative powers. SANDF, qualitatively is still operationally a shadow of the former SADF. The Naijja boys by all accounts performed poorly in ECOMOG and in fact some say prolonged both civil wars in Liberia and Sierra Leone.
I don't see either of them projecting themselves so robustly outside their borders soon.

@Mwaura
All the above achieved through selling coffee berry, tea leaf's and fat belly white guy’s spending USD while busking with tuskers on our sandy beaches or watching Nkarei’s neighborhood at the Mara.

Our Military planners have done a good job in the last 30yres for the 10th ranked economy in the continent.. We had our shares of ups and down, but on the average it’s a Job well done.
I will tell in confident that had it not been for the mild military embargos during “M O 1” times, our forces would be stride away today.

Check out this interesting info. To compliment on what you have said above. ( Spears tips affraid

)

Vuvuzela Defense Forces: (Largest economy on the continent)
Army:
38 out of 250 MBT in a working condition. Olifant 1A/1B tanks the only MBT’s in ops i would expect at least T-90 on the lower side for such an economy.
80 out of 240 Rooikat wheeled armoured fighting vehicle in a working status.
Artillery
GV6 155 mm self-propelled howitzer 43 pcs
GV5 155 mm howitzer 75pcs
G2 140 mm gun 66pcs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_Army#Combat_vehicles

Air
Jas-39 22pcs as of 2008 before that BAe Hawk100 24pcs
11 helicopter gunships for the air Calvary. Denel AH-2 Rooivalk

Ogaa Armed force: (3th largest economy on the continent, 7th ranked globe crude oil supplier)
Army:
There are rooms for improvement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigerian_Army#Tanks

Airforce:
15pcs F-7 Chinese Cloned MiG-21
6pcs Mi35 gunship (air Calvary)

Lucky lucky them...... Rwanda isn,t an immediate next door neighbor otherwise Matching orders would be conducted in Kinya’rwanda Laughing

.

@countersniper I hope that profile picture reflect you, you could spend sometimes somewhere under lock and key for impersonation "a......"...my friend ……otherwise to good to know we are in similar trades Very Happy

.

Flying Crane Thu Feb 16 2012, 12:48

KUDOS africa mashariki....... Very Happy

the Home for Su30 4th gen. first in south sahara

Spartan Thu Feb 16 2012, 13:28

Risasi wrote:Vuvuzela Defense Forces: (Largest economy on the continent)....

Ogaa Armed force: (3th largest economy on the continent, 7th ranked globe crude oil supplier)....

Does military muscle have to be commensurate with economic strength? I mean, Nigeria and South Africa have enough assets to deal with their threats, both real and perceived. Despite having a larger economy, South Africa has no business having a military as big as Egypt's (Egypt's military posture is reactionary to Israel's perceived strengths).

Talking of large economies in Africa, I thought they had buildings over 60 floors. I could have sworn that I've seen skyscrappers like that adorn Jo'burg's skyline (actually I thought Nairobi had at least one) until I saw this ;

http://www.capitasymonds.co.uk/news__events/latest_news/capita_symonds_reveals_kampala.aspx

@Flying Crane, where had you flown off to?

Guest Thu Feb 16 2012, 14:04

Way to go, Uganda! But build it first, then brag about it. I can also post links to fantastic construction projects in Kenya that have not and may never be built.

Spartan wrote:
Talking of large economies in Africa, I thought they had buildings over 60 floors. I could have sworn that I've seen skyscrappers like that adorn Jo'burg's skyline (actually I thought Nairobi had at least one) until I saw this ;

http://www.capitasymonds.co.uk/news__events/latest_news/capita_symonds_reveals_kampala.aspx

timoh Thu Feb 16 2012, 14:43

@spartan, nice 4 UG to finally have crappers, am sure yu've had of the silicon savanna 'konza city', 'tatu city'......(in kenya). way to go east africa.
@nkarei "let the sleeping dogs lie".......hehehe i like.

Guest Thu Feb 16 2012, 15:14

[quote="Spartan"]
Does military muscle have to be commensurate with economic strength? Despite having a larger economy, South Africa has no business having a military as big as Egypt...

quote]

@ Spartan - come on Soldier, you know better, ought to know better. Of course Vuvuzela must have the military muscle commensurate with the expectation of leadership that comes to her. She must have the overt means or public perception of projecting her Culture and Interest beyond her borders. That she hasn't is the greatest tragedy of our times - take away Madiba from them, and South Africa has generated not one positive idea in Africa, NOT ONE!! As a force for Change in Africa - moral, literary, scientific, political, cultural, religious, economic, she exists simply as a potential. And because she punches so much under her weight, collectively Africa is largely ignored in the Global arena. Vuvuzela is locked in a debilitating Time-warp, rusticating in nostalgia or bitterness, in a persecuted complex or self-entitlement arrogance. It is like the entire Nation yearns to revert to the past, lacking a common definition of its National purpose. One side because identity to their Caucasian world was so evident and unquestioned, for the other because it furnished ready made excuses for continued failure. Consequently, emergent economic giants around Vuvuzela - Botswana, Angola, Namiba, look outward for inspiration and leadership; while those on her periphery - Zambia, Zimbabwe, Malawi, Mozambique, have all but broken away from her orbit.

As concerns Oga-land, were her Military to have developed commensurate with her financial capabilities, there would have been greater cohesion in her society if only because of the multiplier effect of Military in the country - employment, consumption of goods and services, greater integration and national presence, etc... And Boko Haram would have thought a great deal before commencing large-scale insurrection in Nigeria.

A nation that aspires to greatness that does not found such aspirations on a strong capable Military, builds on river-sand. afro

areba Thu Feb 16 2012, 16:00

Vitruvian wrote:Way to go, Uganda! But build it first, then brag about it. I can also post links to fantastic construction projects in Kenya that have not and may never be built.

With things moving the way they are, after were done with this mother of all arms races, looks like well start an altogether new race on the skyscrapers front... who knows, now that the good lady has been interred on freedom corner, that couple dozen skyscraper project in uhuru park may just be ressurected by @ farao

vitruvian....

Spartan Thu Feb 16 2012, 16:50

Vitruvian wrote:Way to go, Uganda! But build it first, then brag about it. I can also post links to fantastic construction projects in Kenya that have not and may never be built.

I will definately remember that wisdom Vitruvian.

@ole Nkarei, you are right about the South Africans and their perennial geopolitical under performance. The size, structure and function of the SANDF, according to the Defence Whitepaper 1995 upon which the reorganisation of their forces and the defence ministry was based, were supposed to be determined by SANDF's primary function (territorial sovereignty and integrity), with special consideration to internal deployments and international peace support operations. The nitty gritties were however left to another Defence Review, whose implementation phase (purchase of submarines and other assets I think) was rocked by Jacob Zuma's corruption allegations around some few years ago.

That, coupled with internal political divisions, means that while they were happy to blow vuvuzelas together, South Africans are yet to put their house in order. But they definately have the prerequisites in place; a robust military industrial complex and no one in the vicinity willing to challenge them. Otherwise, even the West has respect for anyone who can pull off the technological feat of producing a bird like this;
http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/9/0/4/1422409.jpg

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