Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

HokumA Tue Oct 16 2012, 20:30

MWAURA wrote:Torture?? Hell no! That shortsighted tactic would bring more problems than it solves. MRC are really not that difficult to counter with good intel. What I find of interest is that the usual suspects can revive such feelings of disenfranchisement with such ease.

I really disagree with you Sir, its not a shortsighted tactic its a nice skillset to have if you intend to let the enemy know that you are deadly serious. I am not saying that we should Torture those MRC dudes but if we know that someone has a number to the guy Bank rolling the process and we ask them three times and they say no then to hell with the due process. To let you in on a not so secretive secret if you were to take two of those guys for a ride on the MD and just toss one of them out the other will be willing to tell you his life story in very explicit details.

Spartan Tue Oct 16 2012, 20:44

ole Nkarei wrote:In States where Martial Law (it matters not the extent of it - general application or Court Martial for specific instances) persistently complements Civilian Law, the distinction between the State and the Head of State is invariably hazy. In other words, the Martial Law is primarily a power-entrencment tool....

It would do a lot of good if you followed my example and mentioned state names (I know you have a few of your neighbors in mind) so we could put your arguments in perspective . The USA, the pre-eminet democracy and civil liberties nation everyone is trying to emulate, has martial law applying to some sections of bad boys (Guantanamo Bay).

Does Kenya have a stronger history of observing civil liberties than the US? Or is this a case of some parishioner trying to best the pope at holiness, or what?

@Mwaura, welcome back after some absence. Regarding your post, I would like to point out that martial law or court martials are not synonymous with torture. Military law just does away with bureaucracy and technicalities, like in Uganda's case, producing a suspect in court within 48 hours of arrest, even when the state has not gathered enough evidence for a conviction. This allowed Abou Rogo to go scot-free after his first arrest.

But never mind, I know you are at pains to make your point without pointing fingures. Can we drop this now?

jasiri Tue Oct 16 2012, 21:55

You are a liberal and I respect your liberal views I really do but I would like to hear your views on OLN.I will present you with two options;

Send 2,000 Men and Women (Sea, Air and land asset which cost billions to operate) to enforce civil reasoning and order among the Kebaabs and the greater lawless Somalia or.
Send 2,000 conflict resolution experts (we are shorthanded there) to try
and explain to the Kebaabs that peace suits all of us (will cost
nothing as compared to option 1 and might save more lives)
Torture like war is a means of averting more loses human or otherwise not an end. You don’t torture for the sake of Torturing you do so to gather Intel which you should verify independently or through other parties and then act accordingly.

I believe we have to understand the difference between Al-Shabab, MRC and a standing national army e.g Ethiopia (swallowed Uganda our favourite villain Very Happy

).
Like i said MRC is political (and domestic) so enhanced interrogation techniques is an absolute NO.
For Shabab, if the the KDF can keep a lid on it...which would mean executing the suspect after he has been interogated...then am all for it.
For the National army scenario...unless it is for a propaganda purpose, lets cut their balls off. The trick is just to know where and how to apply it.

Fabrizio Tue Oct 16 2012, 22:24

HokumA wrote:
Vitruvian wrote:
HokumA wrote:
Sometimes people have difficulties acknowledging the priceless value of common sense, in such cases it becomes our responsibility to remind them. Due process is good when we detect the existences of civil reasoning but absence of order. But when civil reasoning and order are confirmed to be missing then we send in the GSU and other enforcers who have the skillset required to underpin the importance of such. Just to be clear I am for absolute enforcement of order and good behavior preferably through due process but never ruling out enhanced interrogation with WBT been my preferred card in the deck.
That' why I love this forum - you learn something new every day.
Thanks, HokumA, for explaining when it's OK to use torture as a means of extracting information and when it's common sense for a state to sanction it. Those wackos at ICC and most of the rest of the world must be living in fantasy-land.
I don't know what I'd do without you guys.

You are a liberal and I respect your liberal views I really do but I would like to hear your views on OLN.I will present you with two options;

Send 2,000 Men and Women (Sea, Air and land asset which cost billions to operate) to enforce civil reasoning and order among the Kebaabs and the greater lawless Somalia or.
Send 2,000 conflict resolution experts (we are shorthanded there) to try
and explain to the Kebaabs that peace suits all of us (will cost
nothing as compared to option 1 and might save more lives)
Torture like war is a means of averting more loses human or otherwise not an end. You don’t torture for the sake of Torturing you do so to gather Intel which you should verify independently or through other parties and then act accordingly.

Your reasoning reminds me that Kenyan Police recently used a similar argument to explain why they were not providing security to the Tana River Delta. According to them, provision of security was tantamount to getting on the wrong side of the ICC. In other words they could not provide security without committing crimes against humanity. Which is hogwash of course. It brought home the urgency of the envisaged reforms in that force.

Your questions to Vitruvian are strawmen, false dichotomies. Patronizing rubbish.

mogen Tue Oct 16 2012, 23:51

[quote="HokumA"]

MWAURA wrote:... To let you in on a not so secretive secret if you were to take two of those guys for a ride on the MD and just toss one of them out the other will be willing to tell you his life story in very explicit details.

@HokumA
You do not have to 'just toss' one out of the MD to extract info. During Moi's time 2 Helios were used in Pokot with no death but the results were spectacular. Won't go to specifics. Every warrior/armed rustler who hitched a ride in the helio came back to earth a completely subdued and changed man with a resolve never to repeat.

areba Wed Oct 17 2012, 02:35

From where I sit, MRC is all but dead. Something to do with.. "ii iwe funzo kwa hao na wengine wenye tabia kama hizo"...what Im more worried is pax Kenyana and those hungry "economic hitmen" , as Disunited as we are politically, will we make it?

MWAURA Wed Oct 17 2012, 11:41

HokumA wrote:
MWAURA wrote:Torture?? Hell no! That shortsighted tactic would bring more problems than it solves. MRC are really not that difficult to counter with good intel. What I find of interest is that the usual suspects can revive such feelings of disenfranchisement with such ease.

I really disagree with you Sir, its not a shortsighted tactic its a nice skillset to have if you intend to let the enemy know that you are deadly serious. I am not saying that we should Torture those MRC dudes but if we know that someone has a number to the guy Bank rolling the process and we ask them three times and they say no then to hell with the due process. To let you in on a not so secretive secret if you were to take two of those guys for a ride on the MD and just toss one of them out the other will be willing to tell you his life story in very explicit details.

I live in the real world and therefore of necessity I'm a pragmatist. You can't survive otherwise in Africa. Let me clarify-I'm against torture as a policy cause its too easily misused with extremely negative consequences. Imagine doing the 3rd degree on a whole village of 200 youths when only the leaders know where the 3 aks they snatched are hidden.
Let me give you an example of effective 3 rd degree as related by an eyewitness somewhere in Maralal in a Rendille village in early 93. A KWS guy on leave was killed,stripped of uniform and his rifle stolen. They refused to cooperate. The GSU were sent in. Immediately ALL villagers were face down in the dust. The chiefs son was taken for a ride in the Puma-before the disbelieving eyes of family and all was seen doing the running man from 800' AGL.
Almost upon impact his rifle,uniform and 2 other unlicenced firearms were surrendered. More recently Somalis in Mandera were taught a lesson in November 2008. They ambushed a platoon killing 2 and made away with weapons scampering across the border. Army units subjected the village to kichapo cha mbwa. I saw them on TV in Habaswein hospital with whip marks across their asses crying like bitches while one of thir loud mouth (mis)leaders whose name escapes me went on TV to talk about mass graves and genocide,(those guys are liars!).Mysteriously weaponry above and beyond what was stolen was recovered-point being? Be flexible and realistic enough to know kid gloves won't cut it,but don't go overboard.

Guest Wed Oct 17 2012, 14:02

HokumA wrote:
Vitruvian wrote:
HokumA wrote:
Sometimes people have difficulties acknowledging the priceless value of common sense, in such cases it becomes our responsibility to remind them. Due process is good when we detect the existences of civil reasoning but absence of order. But when civil reasoning and order are confirmed to be missing then we send in the GSU and other enforcers who have the skillset required to underpin the importance of such. Just to be clear I am for absolute enforcement of order and good behavior preferably through due process but never ruling out enhanced interrogation with WBT been my preferred card in the deck.
That' why I love this forum - you learn something new every day.
Thanks, HokumA, for explaining when it's OK to use torture as a means of extracting information and when it's common sense for a state to sanction it. Those wackos at ICC and most of the rest of the world must be living in fantasy-land.
I don't know what I'd do without you guys.

You are a liberal and I respect your liberal views I really do but I would like to hear your views on OLN.I will present you with two options;

Send 2,000 Men and Women (Sea, Air and land asset which cost billions to operate) to enforce civil reasoning and order among the Kebaabs and the greater lawless Somalia or.
Send 2,000 conflict resolution experts (we are shorthanded there) to try
and explain to the Kebaabs that peace suits all of us (will cost
nothing as compared to option 1 and might save more lives)
Torture like war is a means of averting more loses human or otherwise not an end. You don’t torture for the sake of Torturing you do so to gather Intel which you should verify independently or through other parties and then act accordingly.

Whether I am liberal or not is really beside the point. The point is maturity and sophistication. The very same kind applied by KDF in Somalia - as compared to, say, Ethiopia's detonate-anything-that-wiggles stratagem. And the results are astounding.
Some may find thrusting bamboo under the enemy's fingernails exhilarating but it is amateurish and ineffectual. Neanderthalesque. Finesse will get you the necessary results without unnecessary fallout. Re: Operation Sledge Hammer.
As for the two scenarios envisaged above, I cannot express myself more judiciously than Fabrizio. The argument is non sequitur, a fallacious attempt to extract a syllogistic conclusion. Most people partaking of this forum will not fall for it. Things just don't work that way.

HokumA Wed Oct 17 2012, 15:27

Vitruvian wrote:
Whether I am liberal or not is really beside the point. The point is maturity and sophistication. The very same kind applied by KDF in Somalia - as compared to, say, Ethiopia's detonate-anything-that-wiggles stratagem. And the results are astounding.
Some may find thrusting bamboo under the enemy's fingernails exhilarating but it is amateurish and ineffectual. Neanderthalesque. Finesse will get you the necessary results without unnecessary fallout. Re: Operation Sledge Hammer.
As for the two scenarios envisaged above, I cannot express myself more judiciously than Fabrizio. The argument is non sequitur, a fallacious attempt to extract a syllogistic conclusion. Most people partaking of this forum will not fall for it. Things just don't work that way.

My argument is based on the assumption that you are against torture because it’s inhumane, if that is the case then you have to agree that killing is also inhumane especially when other means can be explored i.e. sending conflict resolution experts is better than sending troops because it might save lives. But clearly it seems like you are practicing some sort of double standards you support war but are against Torture even when both activities yield the same results.

You ideological alignment informs your view of life, so you been a liberal matters. Liberalism is an umbrella which shelters those without a strong stand point.

HokumA Wed Oct 17 2012, 15:36

MWAURA wrote:
HokumA wrote:
MWAURA wrote:Torture?? Hell no! That shortsighted tactic would bring more problems than it solves. MRC are really not that difficult to counter with good intel. What I find of interest is that the usual suspects can revive such feelings of disenfranchisement with such ease.

I really disagree with you Sir, its not a shortsighted tactic its a nice skillset to have if you intend to let the enemy know that you are deadly serious. I am not saying that we should Torture those MRC dudes but if we know that someone has a number to the guy Bank rolling the process and we ask them three times and they say no then to hell with the due process. To let you in on a not so secretive secret if you were to take two of those guys for a ride on the MD and just toss one of them out the other will be willing to tell you his life story in very explicit details.
I live in the real world and therefore of necessity I'm a pragmatist. You can't survive otherwise in Africa. Let me clarify-I'm against torture as a policy cause its too easily misused with extremely negative consequences. Imagine doing the 3rd degree on a whole village of 200 youths when only the leaders know where the 3 aks they snatched are hidden.
Let me give you an example of effective 3 rd degree as related by an eyewitness somewhere in Maralal in a Rendille village in early 93. A KWS guy on leave was killed,stripped of uniform and his rifle stolen. They refused to cooperate. The GSU were sent in. Immediately ALL villagers were face down in the dust. The chiefs son was taken for a ride in the Puma-before the disbelieving eyes of family and all was seen doing the running man from 800' AGL.
Almost upon impact his rifle,uniform and 2 other unlicenced firearms were surrendered. More recently Somalis in Mandera were taught a lesson in November 2008. They ambushed a platoon killing 2 and made away with weapons scampering across the border. Army units subjected the village to kichapo cha mbwa. I saw them on TV in Habaswein hospital with whip marks across their asses crying like bitches while one of thir loud mouth (mis)leaders whose name escapes me went on TV to talk about mass graves and genocide,(those guys are liars!).Mysteriously weaponry above and beyond what was stolen was recovered-point being? Be flexible and realistic enough to know kid gloves won't cut it,but don't go overboard.

I agree with you, one should be flexible open to suggestions adjusting based on prevailing conditions as long as these changes or actions don't lead to a failure in attaining strategic objectives.

Batian Wed Oct 17 2012, 17:04

I find @vitruvians and Fabrizios logic a bit disturbing. Then how can one deal with such a complex situation? Civil liberties can be allowed to what extent if they pose serious security challenge by endangering other people's lives where normalcy is compromised. And when is the right time any authority to draw a line?

I was suggesting if Fabrizio is tangentially mentioning the ICC, then one should give an alternative overview of one should handle irrational civil repressions in the manner dispensed by "King" Mwamnuadzi and his brigands. Posting axioms is not helping in any way.

jasiri Wed Oct 17 2012, 17:26

The problem with democracy is that you have to learn to live with rules, whether they be neccessary and sufficient or not. Anything done has to be in the framework of the law. With that, i hope this argument dies down.

@O.N, What does K.A plan to do with the Mk 3's once they are deemed insufficient? Upgrades? Conversion to APC's? I think we still have a gap in our tank forces. The numbers we are fielding just not sufficient for this new expeditionary armed force.

Guest Wed Oct 17 2012, 17:45

First of all every discomfort is tortuous in varying degrees. But what "black shark", Batian and Mwaura I think are infering to is willful and determine physical torture as a tool of interrogation.

Physical Torture in interrogation is OUTLAWED in the KDF - despite that every KDF Soldier is taken through various Interrogation under 'Capture-behind-the-lines'. SOF periodically must prequalify in survival through hostile Interrogation simulation that are as real as it gets.

Psychological "discomfort" such sleep deprivation, temperature (atmospheric) extreme, light and sound, under controlled conditions, is integral to Martial Interrogation of PoWs the world over.

But the penchant for the expansion of this envelope is massive because it is expedient. And once you institutionalize it, it gets easier as you get better at savagery towards a fellow human being. Problem is that this is no different from CANNIBALISM. Even in War there must be rules that keep the Soldier above this level of Cannibalism. Lest we become but squabbling hyenas over a kill.

Surely it cannot escape how incongruous "Democracy" and "rule of Law" for which Wars are waged, and dehumanization of a fellow human being are, side by side. Because it reflects right back on the system that uses Torture as a tool - it's savage and undemocratic it is.

In Crazy Town, Sammy runs a large detention centre with Zoomaaiya Intelligence Agency. What he cannot do on the in-mates in Quatanamo is Sammy's ordinary menu in this Detention Centre in Crazy Town. Sickens me to death each moment of flashback. @Spartan - I object, Soldier; we are not trying to emulate the USA on the conduct of War. Despite the heady correct public posturing of Sammy, few Governments have savaged their own people as much as and wrecked as much havoc on humanity than successive American Governments.

@Jas - the Vickers and AMRV/ APC is great topic. Let's slay this dragon of "Torture" first. Ama?

jasiri Wed Oct 17 2012, 18:04

@Jas - the Vickers and AMRV/ APC is great topic. Let's slay this dragon of "Torture" first. Ama?

Sawa, mukimaliza niiteni.

proud kenyan Wed Oct 17 2012, 21:47

its so quiet in sector 2,@ ON hope all is good out there in the theatre

Nesta Wed Oct 17 2012, 21:56

ole Nkarei wrote: Let's slay this dragon of "Torture" first. Ama?

I don't support torture just for the sake of it. But i believe that it can be very useful when quick action is needed and lives will be saved.

If you lose your fellow soldiers in war, say they've been kidnapped by the enemy and you get on one of the enemy guys and he goes along to say "my right to remain silent blah blah." What to do? If a police officer get's an Elgiva bwire who says, I'm al-shabaab; do what you want; shouldn't the police torture him if he can give info?

Neutral Ground Thu Oct 18 2012, 04:45

In Sammys world its not toture but "enhanced interogation or discussion" whatever one calls it.The point is he"
PR savvy. .Like @Nester has put it, its not for fun.Note how the name "Al Kuwait" came to sammy and led to
"Target Geronimo" ,water boarding eh,nice slogan.Everybody cerebrated.
Look,if I was a police officer and a villager or Group comes at me with Pangas /Arrows when am keeping peace in Tana/Kwale, they are not the ones who come first in the due process,I am,and
I will , and live to fight a different kind of battle,.Thats the chance a civilian takes when they come with weapons at an armed officer.Astonishngly the usual suspects are loudly silent when an officer falls.What hypocrisy?
A story is told of two senior Chinese officers of yore who had been condemned to hang for certain offences and one pleaded with the Emporer to pardon him on condition he trains the emporer's horse how to fly within a score of years.The emporer agreed.
His co-accused later asked him why he promised the impossible.He replied that within those years three major things may happen:
1.The horse might die.
2.The Emporer Might die
3.I might succeed in training the horse to fly
They agreed it was worthwhile to try,after all, horses are not immortal.

mogen Thu Oct 18 2012, 05:54

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0zQ19wK5wEk#!

Guest Thu Oct 18 2012, 08:21

proud kenyan wrote:its so quiet in sector 2,@ ON hope all is good out there in the theatre

So far OLN has been a "Smart War" driven by accurate Intelligence and clever political maneuvering at the local level. It reflects on the spectacular results and the concurrent KDF loses and little collateral on the noncombattant denizens in the theatre. Now, AS has intelligently dispersed into the population and there are no Military Targets in Sector 2. We have pushed the 'envelope' beyond the limits of Sector 2. The emphasis now is developing appropriate Intel and aggravating COIN operations - which is the ambit of MIC/NIS, SOF (30th) and the Zoomaliya elements in AMISOM sector 2.

There is a lot of activity under radar by the 30th to interdict dispersal of the AS across the border -remember a good number of their foreign legion are Kenyans. The "hunting licenses" are open and the numbers are pretty good. The crafting of the Jubbaland administration is proceeding well and is key to OLN closure.

In the homeland, it is certain the Security Agencies are consuming Intelligence much better and the reaction times much more acute. Certainly now there urgency in their activities. As well as a willingness to use their hard hats (GSU) to deal with trained negative elements. I reckon we have all got our sheit together now , eh?

Guest Thu Oct 18 2012, 08:51

Nesta wrote:
ole Nkarei wrote: Let's slay this dragon of "Torture" first. Ama?

I don't support torture just for the sake of it. But i believe that it can be very useful when quick action is needed and lives will be saved.

If you lose your fellow soldiers in war, say they've been kidnapped by the enemy and you get on one of the enemy guys and he goes along to say "my right to remain silent blah blah." What to do? If a police officer get's an Elgiva bwire who says, I'm al-shabaab; do what you want; shouldn't the police torture him if he can give info?

The bottom line is a kill is a kill no matter who is killed, who killed and the circumstances of the killing. A Soldier is a much a Killer as that fella on death row in Kamiti. Coz both take a life and for the Soldier several lives are killed dead.

So what makes for a justified or moralistic killing? Society makes rules intended to cement the social falbric that defines it. Those rules eventually differentiate evolving societies, I imagine.

Forma Soldier that frequently moves across this moral line, I can state without equivocation that ever face that steps to this line and lost, lives perpetually with the soldier that ended it's human existence. Regardless of the Moral justification of the killing. And weighs so heavily on the solduer, changes him and could consume him entirely.

Blurring the moral considrrations as is advocated here by some of you is dangerous to society itself. Not even if my life depended on it. As far as I am concerned, torture has no justification at all. I doubt any soldier that has seen from close the effects of Torture would disagree with me.

Ask AS the question quietly. Give him the clear choice to live or die. Almost all will choose to live. Without having to pull out nails or cutting their fingers off. No torture!

mogen Thu Oct 18 2012, 09:08

ole Nkarei wrote:
Nesta wrote:
ole Nkarei wrote: Let's slay this dragon of "Torture" first. Ama?

I don't support torture just for the sake of it. But i believe that it can be very useful when quick action is needed and lives will be saved.

If you lose your fellow soldiers in war, say they've been kidnapped by the enemy and you get on one of the enemy guys and he goes along to say "my right to remain silent blah blah." What to do? If a police officer get's an Elgiva bwire who says, I'm al-shabaab; do what you want; shouldn't the police torture him if he can give info?

...As far as I am concerned, torture has no justification at all. I doubt any soldier that has seen from close the effects of Torture would disagree with me.

Certainly, torture is bad. But surely, security personnel can extract info from someone without subjecting them to torture. Of course, there are many humane and clever ways of extracting info from suspects who are unwilling to speak up. If you see someone who enjoys torturing others you must ask yourself 'what is the matter with the people?'.

Sierra Kilo Thu Oct 18 2012, 11:10

ole Nkarei wrote:In the homeland, it is certain the Security Agencies are consuming Intelligence much better and the reaction times much more acute. Certainly now there urgency in their activities. As well as a willingness to use their hard hats (GSU) to deal with trained negative elements. I reckon we have all got our sheit together now , eh?

This is a positive development though painstakingly slow, it did not have to be that lives whether civvies or blues had to be lost so that machinery can be woken up from deep slumber. This tempo needs to be maintained even when the threat from AS or MRC is finally dealt with. It is due to inactivity or is the word impunity by the security agencies that led to mob justices which gave birth to vigilantes which then mutated to gangs like mungiki and MRC in the first place. A new Kenya where constitutionalism and rule of law is upheld by all is somewhat rising though the signs are blurred to an extent no one can comprehend.

Sierra Kilo Thu Oct 18 2012, 11:44

ole Nkarei wrote:
Blurring the moral considrrations as is advocated here by some of you is dangerous to society itself. Not even if my life depended on it. As far as I am concerned, torture has no justification at all. I doubt any soldier that has seen from close the effects of Torture would disagree with me.

Ask AS the question quietly. Give him the clear choice to live or die. Almost all will choose to live. Without having to pull out nails or cutting their fingers off. No torture!

The regimes preceeding the current one employed torture as a primary interrogation technique to extract information. It is due to the brutality of those regimes that todays society craves for the same to metted out to their 'enemies'. As they say an eye for an eye will make us all blind, one would be correct to say that nearly all of us are blinded and the onous then is for the few that can see to lead us the way.

Neutral Ground Thu Oct 18 2012, 14:13

Just came across this:
http://www.kbc.co.ke/news.asp?nid=78679

Sheikh Dor charged and bailed.

Kobooz Thu Oct 18 2012, 22:15

ole Nkarei wrote:
Nesta wrote:
ole Nkarei wrote: Let's slay this dragon of "Torture" first. Ama?

I don't support torture just for the sake of it. But i believe that it can be very useful when quick action is needed and lives will be saved.

If you lose your fellow soldiers in war, say they've been kidnapped by the enemy and you get on one of the enemy guys and he goes along to say "my right to remain silent blah blah." What to do? If a police officer get's an Elgiva bwire who says, I'm al-shabaab; do what you want; shouldn't the police torture him if he can give info?

The bottom line is a kill is a kill no matter who is killed, who killed and the circumstances of the killing. A Soldier is a much a Killer as that fella on death row in Kamiti. Coz both take a life and for the Soldier several lives are killed dead.

So what makes for a justified or moralistic killing? Society makes rules intended to cement the social falbric that defines it. Those rules eventually differentiate evolving societies, I imagine.

Forma Soldier that frequently moves across this moral line, I can state without equivocation that ever face that steps to this line and lost, lives perpetually with the soldier that ended it's human existence. Regardless of the Moral justification of the killing. And weighs so heavily on the solduer, changes him and could consume him entirely.

Blurring the moral considrrations as is advocated here by some of you is dangerous to society itself. Not even if my life depended on it. As far as I am concerned, torture has no justification at all. I doubt any soldier that has seen from close the effects of Torture would disagree with me.

Ask AS the question quietly. Give him the clear choice to live or die. Almost all will choose to live. Without having to pull out nails or cutting their fingers off. No torture!

I agree with O.N.
1. Torture is not sustainable. You end up with a group of disgruntled victims in society this in itself begets agitation and thus creating opponents of the state, which then leads to political instability i.e in the long run. Why are mau mau victims still seeking justice after so many years? torture is hard to forget.
2. Kenyan security agents seems to be handling the situations fairly well considering the delicate balance presented by our new laws.1
3. You can only understand the pain of torture if you or someone you know subjected to it. In most cases intelligent interrogation still works.

I Prefer a torture free Kenya

On another note O.N. What are the implications of thin tall one setting foot into the UN security council? Is it good or bad for kenyana? Rwanda has just been voted in!

Batian Fri Oct 19 2012, 00:16

If to embrace democracy means that you have to learn to live with rules whether they be sufficient or not, it means that it underpins the foundation of human values. Ironically, its drum-beaters have severally failed to explain why proletariate regimes escape getting away with the offense. The proletariates have been noted to conduct "controversial interrogation methods" at the point of death.

My 3 cents

Guest Fri Oct 19 2012, 07:55

Times like this that I get mad with @Vitruvian @Mekatilili etc - where in heavens ate you? Me, I am just a "point-and-shoot" fella who is way in over my head on the philosophy of this subject.

@Batian - that hardline islamic philosophy was coined nearly 1500 years ago by persons whose worldview was restricted to their warring cousins. Its relevance today would presuppose that the human condition has not evolved one damn bit since - hell even our understanding of God must move in tandem with our understanding of the Nature God created lest God becomes superfluous to humankind.

We cannot engage with these cavemen on their terms because that with be a reversal of whatever evolution that has been. We regress back to time.

Sammy has been in Afghanistan ten years and made no progress for exactly thus reason - his war strategy is no different from that of the savages he fights. And engaging them on their terms, Sammy will certainly loose even if he fights the Taliban to a stalemate.

Torture is just one rang below Cannibalism, my brothers.

@Kabbooz - the UNSC is the executive political arm of the United Nation and their deliberations are driven by the various feet Policy and administrative Agencies formed by the UN. All members of the Council have OnE vote though five of them have weighted VETO votes. Kigali will not have greater influence on matters before the Council because she will have the same rights to canvass the Council line she had before joining the Council. I see no effect at all.

Observer Fri Oct 19 2012, 11:27

Interesting debate we are "torturing" ourselves with here... all international law is against torture, but one would bet those making this rules did not foresee today's threats and the ops needed to counter such. It surely must be a very thin line for a soldier in combat or an operative in a COIN ops faced with possibilities of a worst case scenario and the only means of getting Intel points at getting "physical"... combine this with the inherent stresses of the job and rules of engagement are the last thing he'll worry about.. isn't this just being pragmatic as @mwaura put's it... but then where does one draw the line, what if the chief doing running man at 800 above ground refuses to budge or becomes incoherent.. the uniforms would be able to put more perspective here.. interestingly the economist delved into this debate and provide quite a bit of insight

http://www.economist.com/node/9832909

Cycoh 'DUDUS' Fri Oct 19 2012, 12:04

It will never seize to buffle me. The KDF military indoctrination has always been mantained since 1964,rarely seen across Africa. A 3000 man strong KDF stood out in 1964, 24000 in 2002, and now 70000-2012. Some militaries across Africa i.e. Ethiopia and Nigeria, (to mention a few) managed to hit a 300000 man peak, follwed by a mind-boggling drop to below 100000 boots currently. Though i ain't no military scientist, i can albeit selectively conclude that, this sort of "boot fluctuation" has indeed a great catastrophy to the Military's professionalism in question.

Yes, someone can go ahead and say that the fluctuating numbers might have been as a result of war/civil disorder which on the contrally can't be ruled out in Kenya{Shifta wars}, And yet, no one is testing so far, KDF is awesome as one is guessing. No nationalistic passtime is being utilised, but that feels damn good for sure. Actually, great equipment doesn't matter. Look at DRC, with so much powerful equipment, but the army is a soft target for, being chased allover like some teens on some smoky narcotics, just by some ragtag militias popping from that tiny banana republic (that is already dining with heavyweights in the New York-based "international college" of elite premiers). Its sad, Algeria, Morocco, Egypt...can't escape the fray.

@Risasi, @Ole Nkarei. Mantain that KDF indoctrination gents,hats off for you. It comes at a great and costly sacrifice, willingness and fortitude to train, execute, analyse, understand and project your intent. Infact, realistically speaking, we feel more safe reading an online article about KDF, than inside a church (pardon me the humor). I now see the reason why we always fancy about the 30th and the 40th...just in their preliminaries, still coming to birth. The SBS Commandos have a long way to go, its in the cooking-to be specific.

Out of nowhere, KDF pulls into Somalia, and within one year, the table is fully served for the "Crazy town" Ole man to dine. Like some of us call it "live classrooms", we need to add more of them (East DRC and Mali-they are 'on sale'". The one we have currently is not suffient, we need them today more than we will need them tomorrow; despite some cries by some hot-bloodied civvys calling for the 'home coming' of the men in Somalia after the Kismayo fall.

It is real, i reckon.

Batian Fri Oct 19 2012, 15:35

@ON
How shall we finally slay this "dragon" called torture considering the global brotherhood of mujahedeen sleepers have perpetuated the inclusiveness of jihad as a basis for their religion making death of the "kaffir" an element of righteousness. A religious rite that has evolved from the 1500 is more riveted in killing in the name of god.

Death through any means other than natural ways is inexplicable and there is no justified way of dying and hence there is also no justified reason to kill. The right to live or die remains in the hands of the creator.

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