Re: Kenya Defence Forces (KDF)

countersniper Tue Aug 14 2012, 14:16

Observer wrote:
Sierra Kilo wrote:
countersniper wrote:leaving armed foreign choppers loitering our airspace without tracking them is very troubling.

@countersniper, very valid Qs that need As. Also that a civilian pilot can conduct search and rescue on what is a military incident is very disturbing

"armed" ... any one with info on armaments on the choppers, dont see any information on the media reports about them being armed ...

These choppers were reportedly carrying 4.5 tons of cargo each plus personnel....besides they were heading into a war zone. i presume there must have been some ammunition on board.. probably not primed to fire but in boxes etc..
here is a link from NIPATE. showing first crush site pictures.. you could be right..there is no sign of armaments mounted on the side pods..

http://nipate.com/ugandan-military-disaster-latest-photos-t15529.html

mwepesi Tue Aug 14 2012, 14:16

Guys just a reminder.

It's very important that we don't dance ourselves lame before the main dance. Lets wait for the investigation to be done and the cause of accident ascertained.

lets avoid propagation of fallacies here. point in case is the standard newspaper. Personally i think they have very lazy journalist or something close to that. how can an established media house insinuate such falsehoods that are clearly contradicting the article itself and other articles in the same newspaper by the same person. What is his agenda????

Take this for instant,

http://www.standardmedia.co.ke/?articleID=2000064004&pageNo=1

Simpson located the wreckage of the chopper at 11.00am after circling
around the area for more than half an hour. It was curious that KDF was
not on top of the rescue mission and it appeared the evacuation was left
to the Good Samaritan pilot.

Writes Francis Ngige plus other irrelevances then he also write this (**SICK) at the end of the article after blaming KDF (fast hand information he got from UPDF solders.) I don't get it????

Once they disembarked, two of the soldiers exclaimed: “God is good. We
are safe because of his Grace.” “Just know that all of us who were in
that chopper are fine, but we can’t say more, our seniors will give you
more details,” said the Lieutenant.

One of them, whose mobile phone was without a back cover was overheard recounting his ordeal to his Kenyan colleague.

“Just 30 minutes after we took off from the Nanyuki Airstrip where we
refueled and had lunch, we encountered heavy rains and a storm in a
forest,” the Ugandan officer told his Kenyan counterparts.

He went on: “The aircraft, according to the pilot, lost power as he
attempted to go back to the airstrip due to the bad weather. He told us
it would be difficult for us to continue with the journey.”

He said it was after the pilot started to navigate the chopper to
head back to Nanyuki, he heard a loud bang, before he found himself
sprawled on the ground. “All of us apart from the captain were
conscious. We tried to make calls from our mobile phones, but it was
impossible as there was no network.

“The biting cold and the groaning of the pilot kept us awake the
whole night. In the morning, we decided to start walking from the
wreckage just incase we would find our way out,” he recalled.

“We knew that if we fell asleep, we faced the danger of being
attacked by wild animals inside the deep forest. In the morning we saw a
military Puma (helicopter) hovering around the area. We beckoned them
but there was no response. It appears they did not see us,” he said.
Clearly this writer has an agenda. basically every author of article/story/documentary/etc has an agenda but this one has serious issues with KDF or he is completely incompetent in his work.

another article in the same newspapers BY THE SAME JOURNALIST (Francis Ngige) contradicts his previous surmise, which basically says KDF was caught napping.

here is the link

http://www.standardmedia.co.ke/?articleID=2000064007&story_title=Pilot%E2%80%99s-knowledge-of-mountain-terrain-aided-rescue-operation

Simpson said he had taken a news crew from a foreign media house to the mountain after news of the crash filtered in.

“Once we were at the forest, the Kenyan Air Force gave us the
co-ordinates of the scene where the chopper had crashed. It took me
about 30 minutes to locate it,” he said.
Guys we are smarter than these idiots. lets not try to propagate these lies.

in this age of 24hrs news channels, internet, social sites etc we should be careful not to copy past distorted lies and assume that they are factual even if the media house has a favorable reputation.

Thanks that's all.
Facts will always came out and we would look silly if we took such uninformed positions.

countersniper Tue Aug 14 2012, 14:19

mwepesi wrote:Guys just a reminder.

It's very important that we don't dance ourselves lame before the main dance. Lets wait for the investigation to be done and the cause of accident ascertained.

lets avoid propagation of fallacies here. point in case is the standard newspaper. Personally i think they have very lazy journalist or something close to that. how can an established media house insinuate such falsehoods that are clearly contradicting the article itself and other articles in the same newspaper by the same person. What is his agenda????

Take this for instant,

http://www.standardmedia.co.ke/?articleID=2000064004&pageNo=1

Simpson located the wreckage of the chopper at 11.00am after circling
around the area for more than half an hour. It was curious that KDF was
not on top of the rescue mission and it appeared the evacuation was left
to the Good Samaritan pilot.

Writes Francis Ngige plus other irrelevances then he also write this (**SICK) at the end of the article after blaming KDF (fast hand information he got from UPDF solders.) I don't get it????

Once they disembarked, two of the soldiers exclaimed: “God is good. We
are safe because of his Grace.” “Just know that all of us who were in
that chopper are fine, but we can’t say more, our seniors will give you
more details,” said the Lieutenant.

One of them, whose mobile phone was without a back cover was overheard recounting his ordeal to his Kenyan colleague.

“Just 30 minutes after we took off from the Nanyuki Airstrip where we
refueled and had lunch, we encountered heavy rains and a storm in a
forest,” the Ugandan officer told his Kenyan counterparts.

He went on: “The aircraft, according to the pilot, lost power as he
attempted to go back to the airstrip due to the bad weather. He told us
it would be difficult for us to continue with the journey.”

He said it was after the pilot started to navigate the chopper to
head back to Nanyuki, he heard a loud bang, before he found himself
sprawled on the ground. “All of us apart from the captain were
conscious. We tried to make calls from our mobile phones, but it was
impossible as there was no network.

“The biting cold and the groaning of the pilot kept us awake the
whole night. In the morning, we decided to start walking from the
wreckage just incase we would find our way out,” he recalled.

“We knew that if we fell asleep, we faced the danger of being
attacked by wild animals inside the deep forest. In the morning we saw a
military Puma (helicopter) hovering around the area. We beckoned them
but there was no response. It appears they did not see us,” he said.
Clearly this writer has an agenda. basically every author of article/story/documentary/etc has an agenda but this one has serious issues with KDF or he is completely incompetent in his work.

another article in the same newspapers BY THE SAME JOURNALIST (Francis Ngige) contradicts his previous surmise, which basically says KDF was caught napping.

here is the link

http://www.standardmedia.co.ke/?articleID=2000064007&story_title=Pilot%E2%80%99s-knowledge-of-mountain-terrain-aided-rescue-operation

Simpson said he had taken a news crew from a foreign media house to the mountain after news of the crash filtered in.

“Once we were at the forest, the Kenyan Air Force gave us the
co-ordinates of the scene where the chopper had crashed. It took me
about 30 minutes to locate it,” he said.
Guys we are smarter than these idiots. lets not try to propagate these lies.

in this age of 24hrs news channels, internet, social sites etc we should be careful not to copy past distorted lies and assume that they are factual even if the media house has a favorable reputation.

Thanks that's all.
Facts will always came out and we would look silly if we took such uninformed positions.

you can see the work of CHRIS SIMPSONS handwork here
we have detailed photos of the crash on an American photo blog

http://nipate.com/ugandan-military-disaster-latest-photos-t15529.html

mwepesi Tue Aug 14 2012, 14:45

countersniper wrote:

you can see the work of CHRIS SIMPSONS handwork here
we have detailed photos of the crash on an American photo blog

http://nipate.com/ugandan-military-disaster-latest-photos-t15529.html

@ Countersniper

I have no problem with the work of Chris Simpsons, Infact Ke. is blessed to have such an individual. My issues is with the writer, Publishing distortions. Look at the end of the second story he quotes Mr. Simpsons saying he took out crews from a foreign media house over Mt. Kenya once stories of the Choppers Crash filtered in & he explicitly says that,
“Once we were at the forest, the Kenyan Air Force gave us the co-ordinates of the scene where the chopper had crashed. It took me about 30 minutes to locate it,”
what does that tell you KDF knew the general area where the crash site was. meaning they were on top of things.

From the 1st story Those UPDF officers said in the morning they saw a PUMA heli overhead they tried waving but it moved on. last what does the writes says again KDF didn't have the Right choppers at the time to land on that terrain.

so my issue is with the reporting only. and using such articles as benchmark for some truth.

mogen Tue Aug 14 2012, 14:51

Chopper Crash: 2 bodies found, 5 soldiers rescued
At least two bodies have been recovered from the crash site where two Ugandan military helicopters crashed on the slopes of Mt Kenya. Five other soldiers were rescued alive and flown to Kenya’s military base in Laikipia for first aid and further treatment.
Brigadier Francis Ogolla gave an account of how six the helicopters were involved in the rescue operation.
Two of the Ugandan choppers were partly burned, but the luggage appeared neatly arranged a sign that there was life after the accident....
http://www.standardmedia.co.ke/index.php?articleID=2000064036&story_title=Crash:-2-bodies-found,-5-soldiers-rescued

Kenya Defence Forces (KDF) Burnt-12

KWS Officer talks to the media on the Search and Rescue effort
https://youtu.be/c_iEcJtaM6U

KDF LAB Commander addresses media on the Search and Rescue effort
https://youtu.be/a_XH6P5p3Ac

countersniper Tue Aug 14 2012, 15:00

mwepesi wrote:
countersniper wrote:

you can see the work of CHRIS SIMPSONS handwork here
we have detailed photos of the crash on an American photo blog

http://nipate.com/ugandan-military-disaster-latest-photos-t15529.html

@ Countersniper

I have no problem with the work of Chris Simpsons, Infact Ke. is blessed to have such an individual. My issues is with the writer, Publishing distortions. Look at the end of the second story he quotes Mr. Simpsons saying he took out crews from a foreign media house over Mt. Kenya once stories of the Choppers Crash filtered in & he explicitly says that,
“Once we were at the forest, the Kenyan Air Force gave us the co-ordinates of the scene where the chopper had crashed. It took me about 30 minutes to locate it,”
what does that tell you KDF knew the general area where the crash site was. meaning they were on top of things.

From the 1st story Those UPDF officers said in the morning they saw a PUMA heli overhead they tried waving but it moved on. last what does the writes says again KDF didn't have the Right choppers at the time to land on that terrain.

so my issue is with the reporting only. and using such articles as benchmark for some truth.

I agree with you that the level of distortion of information regarding this incident in the last 48 hours since the incident happened has gone beyond the normal.
t would have been easy for the media to hire a chopper visit the area and then write informed stories since the KDF or Kenya government did not seal off the crush site.
my heart goes out to those rescued soldiers who even in their darkest hour kept cool and referred only to their seniors when probed by those hapless journalist.
.They were more worried about that other than the fact that they were safe.

Guest Tue Aug 14 2012, 15:42

It would appear the Long Knives are out for the KDF, eh? Difficult to separate speculations from our discourse, for sure; but may I ask reflection on the deadly security ramifications of the various theories developing here.

The Zoomaliya situation has a real propensity to fragment the entire region into unending and laegescale organized violence the like unknown to us. Two fully composed. Military Groups projecting individual National interests. A profusion of greedy immoral foreign Interests that is willing to o all it takes to safeguard their interests. In a lawless mineral rich country where rational conduct is a misnomer. Obvious divide-and-rule tactics evident with the objective of driving a strategic wedge between Uganda and Kenya. This incident just days before Kismayu take-down has a real potential for Military Conflict between Uganda and Kenya at some point after Kismayu.

Who gains from a disunited and fractious EAC? What is at stake now and in thr immediate time? Who has Armed Elements in the vicinity of these Crushes? Was the deployment OpsSec inUPDF-AF aand KDF acceptable? Flight Path skirting South Mt. Kenya? All weather day-and-night capability Computerized Flight Controls on Terraine, Elevation, Attitude, real-time Location, Direction, Situationa Awareness, IFF and Radar, etc all went to sleep? That Chopper can bloody sell fly itself through hell itself!

Adulteration of fuel and Sabotage in LAB unthinkable impossible. Air-Defence intervention intentionally or inadvertently out of question! Equipment Failure unlikely - those birds we're as good as new from all indications. Crew competence is not in doubt - flying is not like trekking through a jungle that gets better with a recce.

There too many yet unknown but not for long. It would be advisable to temper our speculation until more is known.

@Sierra Kilo - the SAR location was not a Military Zone. Anyone that got the SOS had legitimate right to respond, even the Poacher in that forest.

Of course my sorrowful thoughts to the families of the brave and worthy brothers-in-arms of the UPDF. In this light I entreat for some balance in our supposition about this regrettable incident.

Observer Tue Aug 14 2012, 16:37

ole Nkarei wrote:It would appear the Long Knives are out for the KDF, eh? Difficult to separate speculations from our discourse, for sure; but may I ask reflection on the deadly security ramifications of the various theories developing here.

The Zoomaliya situation has a real propensity to fragment the entire region into unending and laegescale organized violence the like unknown to us. Two fully composed. Military Groups projecting individual National interests. A profusion of greedy immoral foreign Interests that is willing to o all it takes to safeguard their interests. In a lawless mineral rich country where rational conduct is a misnomer. Obvious divide-and-rule tactics evident with the objective of driving a strategic wedge between Uganda and Kenya. This incident just days before Kismayu take-down has a real potential for Military Conflict between Uganda and Kenya at some point after Kismayu.

Who gains from a disunited and fractious EAC? What is at stake now and in thr immediate time? Who has Armed Elements in the vicinity of these Crushes? Was the deployment OpsSec inUPDF-AF aand KDF acceptable? Flight Path skirting South Mt. Kenya? All weather day-and-night capability Computerized Flight Controls on Terraine, Elevation, Attitude, real-time Location, Direction, Situationa Awareness, IFF and Radar, etc all went to sleep? That Chopper can bloody sell fly itself through hell itself!

Adulteration of fuel and Sabotage in LAB unthinkable impossible. Air-Defence intervention intentionally or inadvertently out of question! Equipment Failure unlikely - those birds we're as good as new from all indications. Crew competence is not in doubt - flying is not like trekking through a jungle that gets better with a recce.

There too many yet unknown but not for long. It would be advisable to temper our speculation until more is known.

@Sierra Kilo - the SAR location was not a Military Zone. Anyone that got the SOS had legitimate right to respond, even the Poacher in that forest.

Of course my sorrowful thoughts to the families of the brave and worthy brothers-in-arms of the UPDF. In this light I entreat for some balance in our supposition about this regrettable incident.

Most of the birds are more or less intact; the vital flight components, the pilot of the first bird is alive... we should get answers sooner than later...

mogen Tue Aug 14 2012, 16:47

Observer wrote:
ole Nkarei wrote:

There too many yet unknown but not for long. It would be advisable to temper our speculation until more is known.

@Sierra Kilo - the SAR location was not a Military Zone. Anyone that got the SOS had legitimate right to respond, even the Poacher in that forest.

Of course my sorrowful thoughts to the families of the brave and worthy brothers-in-arms of the UPDF. In this light I entreat for some balance in our supposition about this regrettable incident.

Most of the birds are more or less intact; the vital flight components, the pilot of the first bird is alive... we should get answers sooner than later...

Looks like the Pilot sustained neck and possibly spinal injury and presently in hospital.He lost consciousness at time of crash - see cockpit window has a hole and most likely tree stump went thro' there. Not prudent to attempt an interview now. Can't tell when he will be out of hosp or ready for debriefing. We will wait until survivors from the other chopper(s) the are found and his recovery.

countersniper Tue Aug 14 2012, 17:06

the rescue efforts by these civilians is very very encouraging
if i was President museveni or kibaki i would give them presidential recognition

for their gallant efforts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPPCPAKQx30&feature=relmfu

For me after carefully looking at the unfolding story and listening to the KWS ranger in charge of the area i think the three Ugandan choppers were trying to scale or fly past of a part of the mountain and were caught in a violent cross winds which find naturally formed wind funnels as they sweep across the mountain as they seek to find a way across from below after moving long distances across the Savannah landscape
some of these winds are usually moving at more than 100 miles per hour..so three rotary winged aircraft flying in a tight formation thrashing the huge powerful blades coming into contact with such winds will form a lethal combination of force akin to s localized tornado.
no helicopter can survive this.
this explains the accident where the choppers are scattered in a two kilometer radius.
such freak winds are usually sudden and will appear without warnings.
WE need to get all weather expert reports on that day..if possible wind patterns and direction in relation to the three choppers flying direction.
it is interesting to note that the much heavier laden cargo chopper made it to garrisa having avoided the fate of the other three gunships.

Guest Tue Aug 14 2012, 17:21

If this unfortunate incident hadn't such huge ramifications to this region, some of suppositions have some greek humor to them!

Ati KDF brought the choppers down - coz ati LAB Tactical Security was compromised!! Aheeemm!

Would any of these brave UPDF have walked away from this? A very isolated, very inaccessible crash sitethat is illuminated on Radar and Satnav coordinates known along a clear Flight Trajectory, and an entire night plus five daylight hours to get a Delta Team mop up survivors and sanitize the crash site before anybody else "discovers" the site - that cannot be quantum physics, for crissakes!!

If anything has come clearly in the open, from OLN, it is that KDF reflects the Kenya Ethos of efficiency and deliberate action. Aissee, give some credit where it is due.

countersniper Tue Aug 14 2012, 17:29

ole Nkarei wrote:If this unfortunate incident hadn't such huge ramifications to this region, some of suppositions have some greek humor to them!

Ati KDF brought the choppers down - coz ati LAB Tactical Security was compromised!! Aheeemm!

Would any of these brave UPDF have walked away from this? A very isolated, very inaccessible crash sitethat is illuminated on Radar and Satnav coordinates known along a clear Flight Trajectory, and an entire night plus five daylight hours to get a Delta Team mop up survivors and sanitize the crash site before anybody else "discovers" the site - that cannot be quantum physics, for crissakes!!

If anything has come clearly in the open, from OLN, it is that KDF reflects the Kenya Ethos of efficiency and deliberate action. Aissee, give some credit where it is due.

i see that the commander in chief of Kenya defense forces has just sent a message of condolences to the Ugandan counterpart and the surviving soldiers and families as a result of this tragedy
seems like some high level trajectory of this event should not be under estimated.
Museveni must hopping mad about what really happened .

mogen Tue Aug 14 2012, 17:41

countersniper wrote:
ole Nkarei wrote:If this unfortunate incident hadn't such huge ramifications to this region, some of suppositions have some greek humor to them!

Ati KDF brought the choppers down - coz ati LAB Tactical Security was compromised!! Aheeemm!

Would any of these brave UPDF have walked away from this? A very isolated, very inaccessible crash sitethat is illuminated on Radar and Satnav coordinates known along a clear Flight Trajectory, and an entire night plus five daylight hours to get a Delta Team mop up survivors and sanitize the crash site before anybody else "discovers" the site - that cannot be quantum physics, for crissakes!!

If anything has come clearly in the open, from OLN, it is that KDF reflects the Kenya Ethos of efficiency and deliberate action. Aissee, give some credit where it is due.

i see that the commander in chief of Kenya defense forces has just sent a message of condolences to the Ugandan counterpart and the surviving soldiers and families as a result of this tragedy
seems like some high level trajectory of this event should not be under estimated.
Museveni must hopping mad about what really happened .

No doubt this extent of loss would cause major concerns anywhere. Kampala will be livid and some heads may roll over this. Massive setback. Aisee!!

Olekoima Tue Aug 14 2012, 18:36

http://www.capitalfm.co.ke/news/2012/08/kenya-to-probe-why-uganda-choppers-crashed/

countersniper Tue Aug 14 2012, 18:59

they will need to study the weather patterns on mt Kenya
i think as earlier shown the wind phenomena known as anabatic which is common and active on this mountain needs to be studied extensively to find out if it may have caused the crash

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Kenya

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Mount_Kenya

jasiri Tue Aug 14 2012, 20:58

If the formation was maintaining radio silence then they wouldn't necessarily have to transmit every 10 mins. Civilian aircraft(a/c) typically transmit 'Ops Normal' after every 40 mins. I am not an authority on military aviation and so i'll assume they would have been required to do an 'ops normal' after 40 mins though for military a/c this may be longer (Risasi step in please)
Someone has also raised 'strong anabatic winds'. Anabatic winds are never strong enough to crash a plane as they have to fight gravity in their upward ascent, what i'd point as the most likely culprit is Lee Waves. This is when wind blows up a mountain then on the lee ward side comes down with significant velocity. It is speculated as the cause of a Royal Norwegian Air Force C-130J Hercules crash in a mountain in Norway. This may be the reason for the basing of the initial SAR efforts to areas around Masinga n Ukambani, all in the lee side of Mt. Kenya. Probably as new comers to this region, they didn't know which side of the mountain to avoid especially after they attempted to turn back.
I also think it is very unfair and pretty foolish for the press or anyone else educated to blame the Air Force for not rescuing the UPDF-AF crew. Even on a good day in the civy world, no one wants to be anyone near a Puma as those powerfull Turbomeca Turmo or a Mil-171 as the Isotov engines are busy turning the rotors, even in an idling mode. The amount of rotor wash u get whiped with is incredible! The explanation by K.D.F that all appropriate choppers for the job couldn't be spared, i can swallow. This is probably the reason why that Tropic air dude got called in in the first place. TRUST ME, there is nothing samaritan about burning litres of Jet-A1 ESP FROM A COMMERCIAL HELICOPTER. As explained somewhere, the Air Force vectored Simpson to the crash site.
We are better than this guys.

Guest Tue Aug 14 2012, 21:54

cylon wrote:Will we see the mil-28's enter the battle for chai.....

Bloody mess we have gotten ourselves into, eh? Hopefully we can stay intact in our course and in our resolves. Now, time to celebrate the Braves that perished, give them honor and respect. May I suggest a time-out for this ''Cause'' and ''Blame'' discourse for a coupla days??

AU/UNSC authorised only nine Utility and three Gunships into AMISOM. UGABAG offered their Mi-24 - those birds on Mt. Kenya were ''it''!

It is not that KDF cannot take down Kismayu, we can - and with the advantage of a tightly knit seamlessly unified Command; but that Real-politiks require more than token participation of Ethiopia, Djibouti,Uganda and Burundi in this assault and suppression of AS in their last bastion. To avoid conflicting competing national initiatives post AS/Kismayu between the TTC and Ethiopia - external forces would exploit these to all our detriment.

Are we likely to see the Havoc @ Black Shark in sieving Kericho Tea over Kismayu? - That call is real, Cylon, but way above my pay-grade!

tempest Tue Aug 14 2012, 22:06

U.S. to boost KDF’s missions in combating Al-Shabaab militia

In what may be considered as a new lease of hope, Kenya is set to receive “eight hand-launched Raven drones” from the United States of America as part of a new military package aimed at wiping out the Al-Shabaab militia group in Somalia. The military support comes weeks after the U.S. President; Barrack Obama gave remarks applauding the attempts Kenya has made to ensure that the nation and the entire region at large attain peace by fighting terrorism groups said to cause havoc and devastating economic stability. In reference to a report issued in the Wall Street Journal published mid this week, the equipment shall comprise of a military assistance from the Pentagon. It would be noted that both nations have fallen victims to terror attacks from the outlawed militia which is also linked to Alkaida movement and they take nothing to chance to ensure stability is achieved.

Further information obtained from the Journal indicated that indeed Kenya shall get the Raven drones together with sensors which are normally used to pinpoint potential targets during the attacks. The equipment is unarmed but is considered effective in identifying targets for strikes using ground forces. According to a quotation in the Pentagon document, the WSJ highlighted that, ”This assistance will assist build the much needed capacity of Kenyan national military forces to conduct counterterrorism operations by providing tactical unmanned aircraft systems and training.” Other states from the East African region were also named in the WSJ set to benefit from the military aid of about $41.4 million. The package is said to include communication gadgets, trucks, military gear and riffles to Kenya, Uganda, Djibouti and Burundi. Hopes to improve the tactical effectiveness of the Kenya Defence Forces are currently underway.

Uzi Tue Aug 14 2012, 23:44

Hi guys welcome me on board! Thot its standard procedure not to go far incase u have an air accident in an area u need rescue? What prompted the four(or is it five?) survivors leave the accident scene and go deeper inside a forest they hardly knew & probably wounded? They seem to have left the very area it would have been easier to locate.

cylon Tue Aug 14 2012, 23:56

ole Nkarei wrote:
cylon wrote:Will we see the mil-28's enter the battle for chai.....

Bloody mess we have gotten ourselves into, eh? Hopefully we can stay intact in our course and in our resolves. Now, time to celebrate the Braves that perished, give them honor and respect. May I suggest a time-out for this ''Cause'' and ''Blame'' discourse for a coupla days??

AU/UNSC authorised only nine Utility and three Gunships into AMISOM. UGABAG offered their Mi-24 - those birds on Mt. Kenya were ''it''!

It is not that KDF cannot take down Kismayu, we can - and with the advantage of a tightly knit seamlessly unified Command; but that Real-politiks require more than token participation of Ethiopia, Djibouti,Uganda and Burundi in this assault and suppression of AS in their last bastion. To avoid conflicting competing national initiatives post AS/Kismayu between the TTC and Ethiopia - external forces would exploit these to all our detriment.

Are we likely to see the Havoc @ Black Shark in sieving Kericho Tea over Kismayu? - That call is real, Cylon, but way above my pay-grade!

I agree with you sir, I can speculate that the Havoc's will be listed in Kismayo if the brass feels the MD-500 can't handle the situation

cylon Wed Aug 15 2012, 00:17

Uzi wrote:Hi guys welcome me on board! Thot its standard procedure not to go far incase u have an air accident in an area u need rescue? What prompted the four(or is it five?) survivors leave the accident scene and go deeper inside a forest they hardly knew & probably wounded? They seem to have left the very area it would have been easier to locate.

Welcome aboard Uzi, It was four Ugandan choppers that were on flight to Somalia, and the soldiers who left the accident scene of the burnt out chopper was for them to go find high ground where KDF choppers or other private choppers to find them. During a crashing landing in unknown terrain its usually commonsense for survivors to gather any salvageable material and leave the crash site for higher ground so you can understand you're bearing's and if its safe to trek outside of the crash zone and to safety. This case for the Ugandan soldiers on the mountain i would say they didnt venture too far from the crash site since its still a place of high probability of them being saved. If lets say KDF personal took more than 24 hours locating the stricken ugandans they would have trekked either north or south of their location to find a sort of clearing and start a fire and signal any emergency crews etc..

What i am not understanding after their stop at Nanyuki instead of them flying towards Laikipia the KDF should have told them to fly towards Isiolo where they would have avoided the mountain and its unpredictable weather, In Isiolo the troops would stayed for the night and the helicopters would have gone for maintenance to check if they were still alright then off again to Garrisa then Wajir then into hostile territory of somalia???? That Mil-17 is a work-horse i would love to see what the russian's would have done if they turned it into a gunship. Same goes with the Puma helicopter the gunship variant is unbelievable.

Guest Wed Aug 15 2012, 00:44

Uzi wrote:Hi guys welcome me on board! Thot its standard procedure not to go far incase u have an air accident in an area u need rescue? What prompted the four(or is it five?) survivors leave the accident scene and go deeper inside a forest they hardly knew & probably wounded? They seem to have left the very area it would have been easier to locate.

Hey @UZI- welcome aboard, and feel nyumbani kwenu. Probably we could all leave the ''postmortem'' for a couple of days give our brothers time to do honor to their dead. The truth will eventually be known.

But why did they leave crash site, start walking? These are Soldiers, the best in their pond, trained to survive shocking adversity. No food, no water, freezing cold, sheet-rain for hours, no comms, a full day gone? With these odds growing each hour, you sit longer, you surely perish.

@Cylon - KDF MD 500 now exclusive to SOCOM. Air Calv is Havoc / Black Shark and Z-9w, with slight deviations between them. Kismayu will be great show for the Gunships - three sided Theatre and wide open space all around it - once you cut it off, the Gunships keep it closed off tight, to choke it, with the periodic combat-air-support in firefights, shotgun rides to keep clear the Flanks and resupply lines. Damn, throats are patched for sure!!

countersniper Wed Aug 15 2012, 01:14

in a normal functioning democracy the surviving crew after being debriefed should be allowed to face the press in an open question and answer session to explain their experiences in brief without compromising their core mission.
i see this all the time IN UK or usa.
remember this can also happen to civilian aircraft.
we need to learn some hard lessons
interestingly KDF has operated choppers in this nairobi-nakuru-nyeri-nanyuki-isiolo corridors for ages without a major mishap.
we have crashes occur to individual crafts but most have been attributed to pilot error and a few to equipment failure
i do remember vividly about one stricken F5 Kenya air force pilot in 1988 who successfully flew his plane from around nyeri or meru areas after taking part in a three plane presidential flypast to MOI airbase even though the plane had lost its cockpit canopy. a feat so daring that the brave man blacked out once the plane touched down.i don't know why the pilot headed for moi airbase but i think he avoided flying over mt Kenya in that state if he was to head to nanyuki air base
standard operational procedures dictates the pilot elects to eject and bail out once the plane looses its canopy at altitude
when the pilot recovered from his injuries days later,he explained he did not want to loose his plane and taxpayer money.
I UNDERSTAND former president moi gave him a presidential commendation.. such courage is rare.

i agree that the Ugandan crew were right to try and find safe ground after waiting more than 24 hours for help..since am sure they could see the rescue teams flying crisis crossing above them searching.
am convinced the crew did not have basic survival kits like flares since none expected to crash in the forest.
this is a major oversight by the Ugandan authorities who don't want to accept that their men were not well equipped.

btw @ chai to kismayu is eminent. Very Happy

oops UZI!! welcome aboard.... we welcome fresh blood on this forum all the time..
@jasiri
please be advised i have no desire to get involved in counter arguments on the subject of radio silence.you agree that every military operation can lay basic ground rules according to operational needs and requirements for that particular mission at the time of execution.
my suggestion of a ten minute time lapse check calls for the ill-fated UPDF flight to Somalia was just a basic suggestion and not absolute as the gospel SOP.
I have during my career done a stint in a very demanding operations communications center(1984/1985/1986) ..in fact my first job after graduating started as radio operations controller three years before i was moved to bigger things.
so we can have a debate on this if you want.
..but i see no reason..anyway i accept some of your observations.
lets keep it civil brother ..and best wishes.. Very Happy

cylon Wed Aug 15 2012, 06:44

ole Nkarei wrote:
Uzi wrote:Hi guys welcome me on board! Thot its standard procedure not to go far incase u have an air accident in an area u need rescue? What prompted the four(or is it five?) survivors leave the accident scene and go deeper inside a forest they hardly knew & probably wounded? They seem to have left the very area it would have been easier to locate.
Hey @UZI- welcome aboard, and feel nyumbani kwenu. Probably we could all leave the ''postmortem'' for a couple of days give our brothers time to do honor to their dead. The truth will eventually be known.

But why did they leave crash site, start walking? These are Soldiers, the best in their pond, trained to survive shocking adversity. No food, no water, freezing cold, sheet-rain for hours, no comms, a full day gone? With these odds growing each hour, you sit longer, you surely perish.

@Cylon - KDF MD 500 now exclusive to SOCOM. Air Calv is Havoc / Black Shark and Z-9w, with slight deviations between them. Kismayu will be great show for the Gunships - three sided Theatre and wide open space all around it - once you cut it off, the Gunships keep it closed off tight, to choke it, with the periodic combat-air-support in firefights, shotgun rides to keep clear the Flanks and resupply lines. Damn, throats are patched for sure!!

Can't wait to see this ensuing battle on film one day

Nesta Wed Aug 15 2012, 07:55

On Tuesday evening, Kenyan officials declared the rescue operation over.
Seven Ugandans were rescued from Mount Kenya on Monday, when the first
crash site was discovered, and eight more on Tuesday morning from a
second crash site not far away. Kenyan officials have said that the
third helicopter was badly burned and that two bodies were removed from
it, with five people missing and presumed dead.

“There was no indication of there being any survivors by the time our
rescue team got there,” said Julius Kipng’etich, head of Kenya’s
wildlife service.

Sierra Kilo Wed Aug 15 2012, 08:24

Nesta wrote:

On Tuesday evening, Kenyan officials declared the rescue operation over.
Seven Ugandans were rescued from Mount Kenya on Monday, when the first
crash site was discovered, and eight more on Tuesday morning from a
second crash site not far away. Kenyan officials have said that the
third helicopter was badly burned and that two bodies were removed from
it, with five people missing and presumed dead.

“There was no indication of there being any survivors by the time our
rescue team got there,” said Julius Kipng’etich, head of Kenya’s
wildlife service.

@Nesta, seems like the worst has now been presumed for the brothers MIA. I believe the next phase is recovery and investigations.

cylon Wed Aug 15 2012, 09:19

Nesta wrote:

On Tuesday evening, Kenyan officials declared the rescue operation over.
Seven Ugandans were rescued from Mount Kenya on Monday, when the first
crash site was discovered, and eight more on Tuesday morning from a
second crash site not far away. Kenyan officials have said that the
third helicopter was badly burned and that two bodies were removed from
it, with five people missing and presumed dead.

“There was no indication of there being any survivors by the time our
rescue team got there,” said Julius Kipng’etich, head of Kenya’s
wildlife service.

I thought they said that the five men had arranged some goods outside the helicopter showing that there were signs of life?? These five guys must be lost and trekking to find sanctuary... RIP to the fallen soldiers

Nesta Wed Aug 15 2012, 09:35

Sierra Kilo wrote:
@Nesta, seems like the worst has now been presumed for the brothers MIA. I believe the next phase is recovery and investigations.

These are soldiers. I guess they have survival techniques; there is a guy who survived there for 8 days. Do we give up so easily?

Observer Wed Aug 15 2012, 19:02

Nesta wrote:
Sierra Kilo wrote:
@Nesta, seems like the worst has now been presumed for the brothers MIA. I believe the next phase is recovery and investigations.

These are soldiers. I guess they have survival techniques; there is a guy who survived there for 8 days. Do we give up so easily?

This footage from Al Jazeera appears to have been of the actual find of the first bird and the vents that followed, the Peter Greste character indicates no one escaped from the third chopper http://www.aljazeera.com/video/africa/2012/08/2012814151548608391.html ...

Guest Wed Aug 15 2012, 19:42

Hi guyz! Just looking at the current developments of the rescue operation in the wildlife infested mt.kenya forest, i can't help but wonder the reasons for calling-off the rescue. If all UG troops aren't accounted for, methinks the most logical thing is to scan the vicinity for signs of wildlife mauling some of these poor lads.....if none, UG could as well be facing a defection of sorts. Neutral

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