Re: Kenya Defence Force

Guest Fri Sep 09 2011, 21:29

Migingo in brief:

The island is in Kenya, but the waters to the west are in Uganda, and fishing has to be on both sides.

Therefore, both nations should be interested in resolving the whole thing amicably. Ugandans however to chose to embarrass Kenyans in 2008, but then had to resort to face-saving measures, thus the Joint Commission.

Now it's Kenyans turn to embarrass Ugandans. They had every right to deploy a police force on the island according to the existing agreement. But they chose to keep Ugandans in the dark, and then conduct the whole thing like a special operation, bringing a force which is essentially disproportional for the task.

You may call it "counter-embarrassment".

Ugandan police on the island could have defused the situation by inviting their Kenyan brothers over to have a cup of tea and in process discuss joint security arrangements. You know, something like that. Instead they pushed the panic button and made it obvious to everyone the were indeed embarrassed.

This round goes to Kenya in my book.

Guest Fri Sep 09 2011, 22:34

Mugwiira wrote:Didn't know you guys have moved to this site while I was left under fire from UPDF fanboys at nairobichronicle! Greetings to you all.

Mugwiira, our man!! Welcome aboard. Now I know you don't read my posts, coz I invited you here months ago, mate! Now the soup can only get tastier with you here!

@ ole Nkarei - how are things moving with the SPECOPS Reg? Operational status achieved already?

If you are referring to the Rangers-type Bat - Ready and Running! Entire outfit now ''bloodied' in Jubaland and places therea-abouts. The other two older Outfits have been expanded, ''retooled'' and ''rebooted'', both better and meaner!

I cannot agree with you more on Migingo - hell, I have been saying the same here and in the chronicles for ages! But don't blame it on the Military - it was a police gig, albeit the muscled variant of the police force. Busia -1987 all over again for the UPDF, one would say!!
.

Guest Fri Sep 09 2011, 22:54

i have been following this discussion or topic if u prefer from way back, i believe the chronicle then to nipate.com n finally here, i have already identified friendlies n tangos in this forum. Now to matters at hand, is kenya ditching 7.62mm to a more western 5.56mm standard? when all indications point to a renewed interest in 7.62mm from experinces in iraq n A stan, heck even H&K came up with the HK 416/417 for tha yanks. Mugwiira am with u on that one.MIGINGO migingo migingo, i hear Uganda has a North Korea trained spec ops unit, i thnk its time we saw them.......hahahaah, am laughin so hard rite now.

Guest Fri Sep 09 2011, 23:16

bravotwozero wrote:i have been following this discussion or topic if u prefer from way back, i believe the chronicle then to nipate.com n finally here, i have already identified friendlies n tangos in this forum. Now to matters at hand, is kenya ditching 7.62mm to a more western 5.56mm standard? when all indications point to a renewed interest in 7.62mm from experinces in iraq n A stan, heck even H&K came up with the HK 416/417 for tha yanks. Mugwiira am with u on that one.MIGINGO migingo migingo, i hear Uganda has a North Korea trained spec ops unit, i thnk its time we saw them.......hahahaah, am laughin so hard rite now.

Welcome Bravotwozero. This is home for you too.

That is one nasty rumor, my brudah, peddled by speculative arms merchants from you-know-where. If you have profeciency with these chumas, you know it is much easier to break in a kurutu with the 5.56 than the 7.62. We are not just modernising, but growing the uniforms too. Initial supplies to cater for the increased numbers are Chinese 5.56 - intended, but as you know NATO is moving away from these smaller calibre Infantry Rifles and there is a huge stockpiled and soon-to-retrieve amount of these - so, offload the dang things to some silly nitwit third-worlder who does not know his elbow from his behind! Not happening. This is the same story with the 'forced supply' of the M16-AI and M4 to the Rangers that the Americans helped us put together juzi tuu.

Moreover, with our policy shift from large stand-still formations of olden days to ''something smaller-else'', the selection of individual weapons will take the line already in use by the Deltas and the CDU Outfits - tasks specific and individual preference.

Tumechanuka, joo!!

As concerns an North Korean trained SpecOps unit in our vicinity - put that nasty dream away. Do you know the costs of cooking one SpecOps chap compared with one in the normal Army! With only about USD230 Mil this year vide his present widespread Deployment, M7 is stretched to breaking point, even factoring the UAD80 of so granted recently for the UGABAG deployment by Uncle Sam!

Guest Fri Sep 09 2011, 23:17

bravotwozero wrote: i hear Uganda has a North Korea trained spec ops unit, i thnk its time we saw them.......hahahaah, am laughin so hard rite now.

What do they do? Starve their enemies to death? Cut off their Internet access? Drive them insane with party propaganda?

Guest Fri Sep 09 2011, 23:24

@ ole Nkarei

Really? I must have failed to take note, sorry.

I was told once that Kenya will eventually have a full SPECOPS Reg, with one Ranger Strike Force Bn and one SPECOPS Bn. 30th & 40th if I'm not mistaken. I have since heard a lot abt the Rangers but not "SPECOPS Reg" which seems kind of strange because mine was a proven source..

And, as a by the way. I understand why there's no 11th KR. But why no 13th KR? Triskaidekaphobia?

Guest Fri Sep 09 2011, 23:45

Mugwiira wrote:@ ole Nkarei

Really? I must have failed to take note, sorry.

I was told once that Kenya will eventually have a full SPECOPS Reg, with one Ranger Strike Force Bn and one SPECOPS Bn. 30th & 40th if I'm not mistaken. I have since heard a lot abt the Rangers but not "SPECOPS Reg" which seems kind of strange because mine was a proven source..

And, as a by the way. I understand why there's no 11th KR. But why no 13th KR? Triskaidekaphobia?

The Rangers have bloodied already, looking good and epirit de corps growing well. The ''other one'' is soon to jump off, not exactly sure ''when soon'' but all in place now -numbers, equipment, structures, etc. Too much siasa in Kenya right now on matters Military, mostly driven by competing external interested parties and an increasingly assertive Civilian Oversight - so need to walk softly at the present moment.

I suspect you may have it right there about the 13th KR - remember our traditions are derived from the Britannia years. Heard talk about your recent prowling around Galkayo area, dude! What news from there?

Guest Sat Sep 10 2011, 00:02

@ bravotwozero - welcome!

From the Foreign Policy blog: "The North Korean special forces' more traditional skills include throwing knives, martial arts, car theft, using spoons and forks as weapons, and sprinting up hills wearing backpacks containing 60 pounds of rocks and sand."

So if you ever come across an African Ninja stealing a car while fighting off a dozen enemies with a spoon, with a backpack full of stones - that will most likely be a PDRK-trained UG commando!

On a more serious note, UPDF's Commando Bn is a serious force which I have a good deal of respect for, even if I'm much more skeptical about UPDF as a whole.

North Koreans in Uganda are mostly there to help maintain some of the more advanced systems such as AD, but they did do some infantry (especially martial arts) training for the UPDF, just as they did for the UNLA. MMA didn't help the UNLA though, and I doubt they ever really helped anyone.

Risasi Sat Sep 10 2011, 01:11

@PW 10,000 riles doesn’t equate to the entire K.A. evaluation, training and future integration is part of the lot purposes., our ranger Bn are equipped with the rifle
https://eastafrican.forumotion.com/t5p90-kenya-armed-forces

@ Mugwiira Very Happy

1.) post the China-Russia RD93 website LINK

2.) are you in a position to distinguish between series 9PAPA & 9LIMA and their sub versions ?
Answer;
The 9PAPA comes in 5 version, AIM-9P1/P2 rear aspect missile, AIM-9P3 side aspect missiles, AIM-9P4 and AIM-9P5 all aspect missile (can perform frontal engagements.)
http://www.pmulcahy.com/aams/us_aams.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-9_Sidewinder#Air_Force_AIM-9E.2FJ.2FN.2FP

Originally designed specifically for export, the AIM-9P has found itself in use by the US Air Force in recent years. The AIM-9P is a simpler, less expensive Sidewinder, without many of the advanced electronics and seeker features of the AIM-9L and AIM-9M. There are several flavors of the AIM-9P, depending upon the needs of the receiving country and what the US is willing to let them have; they are all based on the AIM-9B/E/J series, and many are in fact rebuilds. The AIM-9P1 has a laser proximity fuze for increased reliability; the AIM-9P2 adds a reduced-smoke motor to that. The AIM-9P3 adds a more advanced warhead, improved guidance electronics, and faster-actuating control surfaces. The AIM-9P4 replaces the seeker with one based on (but not quite as advanced as) the AIM-9L/M. The AIM-9P5 adds IRCM resistance similar to that of the AIM-9M.

https://eastafrican.forumotion.com/t5p180-kenya-armed-forces

3.) add this to the 7.62 briefings:
some blaa blaa rights activists are lobbing for the ban of the 7.62 as it has a high kill rate than the 5.56 at the same distance. The lobby group is advocating for a bullet that’s should incapacitate the adversary rather then kill him.

Guest Sat Sep 10 2011, 01:52

@ Risasi
1) I can't post links yet, so please google up: "China has acquired Russian engines to the amount of $500 million" @ ruaviation.com. Date is 04/07/2011.
2) I didn't know AIM-9P was upgraded to that level. Thanks. Point of interest: did KAF get new missiles, or conversion kits were applied? And, is there anything on the photo you posted which can positively identify the missile as a AIM-9P4/5 rather than any other of the J/N/P series?
3) Have these fellows never heard of "stopping power"? Why do they think pistol calibers are usually 9mm and above?
I once read some American witness account of the "Black Hawk Down" episode, and they were telling how they'd shoot half a dozen 5.56mm rounds through the khat-chewing bastards, and those still kept shooting back...

Spartan Sat Sep 10 2011, 09:22

jasiri wrote:Spartan, actually that's one of the rare occasions i read something without smoking.

You got me laughing there, bro. What I meant was that the 'peasants' as Vitruvian calls them were not chased as you put it. As for them being outgunned, that's probably true but of little consequence given the size of the island. A firefight there would be very unpredictable and unwise. Actually, special ops commandos armed merely with sidearms and knives have a better chance of doing a clean job.

@ Mugwiira, you're not serious about North Koreans manning any AD system in Ug, are you? They finished training our boys in Dec 1996 and by Jan 1997 the boys proved themselves by downing a Sudanese Mig-23 and an Antonov.

But I agree with you that this round of 'counter-embarrassment' goes to Kenya. Vitruvian bro, I promise not to comment on Migingo, ever, unless you personally ask my opinion. Peace?

Guest Sat Sep 10 2011, 10:24

[quote="Spartan"]
.....that's probably true but of little consequence given the size of the island. A firefight there would be very unpredictable and unwise. Actually, special ops commandos armed merely with sidearms and knives have a better chance of doing a clean job. (quote]

Your chaps were caught napping despite active instructions to resist a force-landing; it was put out as a tight-fit Kenya Police gig, but other players in peripheral roles - comms block,CDU recon, eyes-on by the AirCalv and some Deltas (just in case the shi..t hit the fan, need to escalate, kinda), Migingo civilian play-along.

Overkill, maybe, but absolute imperative to avoid blood - hell, over Migingo, but for vital National Pride and to assuage bruised Political feelings, there are no tactical or strategic justifications to warrant killing brothers we are joined together verily at the hips !! Well planned and executed, I must say!

Now, lets got that Survey Report out in the public and move on to better things, brothers

Risasi Sat Sep 10 2011, 11:01

@ Mugwiira
1. nothing pops up at the search tag line "China has acquired Russian engines to the amount of $500 million" @ ruaviation.com. Date is 04/07/2011. unless you are having personal Google engine. Post the search result if you can post the link.
2. the 9PAPA differences are mainly internally features ,i.e seekers , software’s and propulsion

@ Spartan Ref: WIKILEAKS
There two aspects that we need to put into consideration when we read through a wikileak Doc, you need to distinguish and identify the two below facts In order to get a vivid posture and weight of the leak. These are:

1. Actualities, proven facts
2. Assumed truth which are opinions and assumptions based on the perception and knowledge of the sender.

the leak quoting Meles doubts on kDF capabilities to pull off a successful operation in jubaland, was Meles opinion. Opinions as we all know are like ButtHoles. Every body has one and thinks his is fine while that of everyone else's stinks.

So much for Meles and his boys.

Guest Sat Sep 10 2011, 11:43

Risasi wrote:

@ Spartan Ref: WIKILEAKS
There two aspects that we need to put into consideration when we read through a wikileak Doc, you need to distinguish and identify the two below facts In order to get a vivid posture and weight of the leak. These are:

1. Actualities, proven facts
2. Assumed truth which are opinions and assumptions based on the perception and knowledge of the sender.

the leak quoting Meles doubts on kDF capabilities to pull off a successful operation in jubaland, was Meles opinion. Opinions as we all know are like ButtHoles. Every body has one and thinks his is fine while that of everyone else's stinks.

So much for Meles and his boys.

My thinking exactly, Bullet-man! There a lot of money being moved about this region by Uncle Sam, and not necessarily with good intentions or to our interests. Everybody is trying to get a piece of it.

If Uncle Sam had bought the Jubaland Initiative, KDF would have as the sun rises each day closed this Somali-chapter firm and tight. But even Uncle Sam has to weigh out his best option/interest, and getting two armed adventurous men on Bashir's two flanks (to keep him off-balance) outweighs immediate closure of the Somali Theatre - ''containment'' (though UGABAG Mogadishu deployment and limited-egress KDF activities) is progressing well enough anyway. At the very least, a rolling initiative by KDF ( without immediate closure of Theatre activities) will dry up all funding to Meles (with an economy half-Kenya's and a Defense Spending at par) and also for M7 who is stretched to breaking point. The Uganda Government has refused a comment, and the M7 Prezzy's personal assistant categorically disclaimed those Wikileaks gossips - probably an expected reaction even if there were his, anyway!!

Reminds me of our twilight excursions to Gituamba in Nakuru during our crazy earliest days at Cadet School, cutting each others knees off with the ''girls'' there by hook-and-crook!!

MWAURA Sat Sep 10 2011, 12:13

Vitruvian wrote:
Spartan wrote:It's perfectly Ok for the APs to share the island with Uganda Marines.

It is this kind of arrogance in defence of illegal and aggressive acts that has caused sparks to fly between us, brother Spartan. Our irritation, I guess, is typical of a big brother who simply has to tolerate mummy's boy's cheek for reasons the latter struggles to comprehend. The insincerity of your assertions that you actually believe that those armed peasants occupying Migingo cannot be routed at the bat of an eyelid is poorly veiled. But strategists wiser than I, it seems, have decided that shoving Bwana Look-at-me-I'm-Napoleon's ego back into its pit latrine would not justify the ensuing economic and humanitarian catastrophe in Uganda. There will, after all, still be a Uganda after the toilet has been flushed.

Hahahaahah!! Very right- I swear that car-jacker king needs a bitch slap! He needs to relearn what happened in 1987. He actually thinks hes a general with his gumboot boys depradations in the Congo;look at this wikileaks link where he belittles the Kenya army:

resident Museveni allegedly questioned the capability of the
Kenyan army to fight the Somali insurgents in Somalia; US ambassador to
the African Union Michael Battle has said in a US leaked diplomatic
cable.Museveni questioned Kenya’s army bush-fighting credentials and the ideological commitment of its Somali proxies.

http://www.monitor.co.ug/News/National/-/688334/1233186/-/bjapyfz/-/index.html
I've believed for some time now this man needs a short sharp lesson in real world warfighting,delivered by a combined arms oeration that shatters his pretensions once and and for all. Not an invasion;just a demonstration of what a modern army,not the RPF or the Congolese army can do.

Flying Crane Sat Sep 10 2011, 12:25

[http://www.monitor.co.ug/News/National/-/688334/1233186/-/bjapyfz/-/index.html
I've believed for some time now this man needs a short sharp lesson in real world warfighting,delivered by a combined arms oeration that shatters his pretensions once and and for all. Not an invasion;just a demonstration of what a modern army,not the RPF or the Congolese army can do.

And what would the tribalistic , corrupted, out dated and second hand equipped kDF need if the UDPF is to be subjected to that.

Guest Sat Sep 10 2011, 14:35

Now Mr.Crane, am sure u must be gettin tired of constantly holdin ur head up from a sinking boat, i guess if it was up 2 u UPDF wld be tha number 1 army in the world? rite! My foot! we are more afraid of Kony n his maraudin adolscent boys than UPDF, ur attitude reeks of west african vile n angst, eminatting from unfulfilled nationalistic dreams of i wonder what? if u have no positive contribution stop with the witchhunt, no witches here only soldiers.

Sir. Nkarei thnk u for that bit of info, deep down i felt smthn fishy was goin on, hpe tha top brass have independent minds, as for the FC-1/ JF 17 am not feelin that bird at all, a single engine if am correct, as compared to the F15 twin engine is my fav. thats just me,

MWAURA Sat Sep 10 2011, 14:58

Now Mr.Crane, am sure u must be gettin tired of constantly holdin ur
head up from a sinking boat, i guess if it was up 2 u UPDF wld be tha
number 1 army in the world? rite! My foot! we are more afraid of Kony n
his maraudin adolscent boys than UPDF, ur attitude reeks of west african
vile n angst, eminatting from unfulfilled nationalistic dreams of i
wonder what? if u have no positive contribution stop with the witchhunt,
no witches here only soldier

s.

Am trying to avoid a juvenile mashada type exchange so I'm ignoring him. He must think we live on Uranus! The true state of the UPDF is an open secret. In 2007 I spent time in S.Sudan and these boys spent their time at Mile 50 on the Yei-Juba highway begging passersby for food and malariaquin. A reliable source also told me the REAL CASUALTIES suffered by the 4th division at the time,when they were playing with Kony.

Guest Sat Sep 10 2011, 15:13

bravotwozero wrote:Now Mr.Crane, am sure u must be gettin tired of constantly holdin ur head up from a sinking boat, i guess if it was up 2 u UPDF wld be tha number 1 army in the world? rite! My foot! we are more afraid of Kony n his maraudin adolscent boys than UPDF, ur attitude reeks of west african vile n angst, eminatting from unfulfilled nationalistic dreams of i wonder what? if u have no positive contribution stop with the witchhunt, no witches here only soldiers.

Sir. Nkarei thnk u for that bit of info, deep down i felt smthn fishy was goin on, hpe tha top brass have independent minds, as for the FC-1/ JF 17 am not feelin that bird at all, a single engine if am correct, as compared to the F15 twin engine is my fav. thats just me,

Fellas, there some chaps that flourish in mud-baths, so don't take up their invitation. It is not curative, take it from me!!

I reckon only client states like Taiwan, Israel, North Korea, etc would not hedge their bets when procuring such expensive military hardware. We would be foolish not to hedge ours too - hell, there is just too much sanctimonious politiking in International Relationships these days. In any case, if our Fly-boys have asked for a two-engine intercepter/air-superiority fighter, then that is just what it will be - damn the source of it. My bet is still on the Eff-fifteen-ees though as there is too much riding on them from a mutual perspective (Kenya / Uncle Sam) - just a matter of time and the speculation ends.

areba Sat Sep 10 2011, 16:33

mJESHI mMOJA wrote:The Kenya army has settled for the Heron 1 drone from the isreal defence firm Israel Aerospace Industries . the Drone a Medium Altitude Long Endurance (MALE) has operating capability of up to 52 hours' duration at up to 35,000 feet and will be used for counter insurgency and anti-pirate activities

Indeed Ive been away from this list too long... any specifics on numbers, running costs and ETA?

Spartan Sat Sep 10 2011, 20:11

[quote="MWAURA"]

Vitruvian wrote:
Spartan wrote:It's perfectly Ok for the APs to share the island with Uganda Marines.

Hahahaahah!! Very right- I swear that car-jacker king needs a bitch slap! He needs to relearn what happened in 1987. He actually thinks hes a general with his gumboot boys depradations in the Congo;look at this wikileaks link where he belittles the Kenya army:
resident Museveni allegedly questioned the capability of the
Kenyan army to fight the Somali insurgents in Somalia; US ambassador to
the African Union Michael Battle has said in a US leaked diplomatic
cable.Museveni questioned Kenya’s army bush-fighting credentials and the ideological commitment of its Somali proxies.
http://www.monitor.co.ug/News/National/-/688334/1233186/-/bjapyfz/-/index.html
I've believed for some time now this man needs a short sharp lesson in real world warfighting,delivered by a combined arms oeration that shatters his pretensions once and and for all. Not an invasion;just a demonstration of what a modern army,not the RPF or the Congolese army can do.

@Mwaura, you don't sound the 'disciplined' type like ole Nkarei (I would salute him if we met) but I will address a common misconception that Kenyans have about 1988 and 1976. episode 1976 was caused by a buffoon, illiterate head of state who was forced to stand down on realising he needed Mombasa, and with it, Kenya's cooperation. Episode 1988 was a misunderstanding and no one was defeated because there was no war.

Kenya needed help in 1988, and who knows, maybe it still needs it. About the gumboots and stuff, just read previous posts. Just folloe the link below to find out whta happened in the eighties before you reply this post.

http://www.policyarchive.org/handle/10207/bitstreams/11332.pdf

Long Live Uganda, Long Live Kenya, Long Live all members of the EAC.

Guest Sat Sep 10 2011, 20:17

@ Risasi
Please type in Google (WITHOUT QUOTATION MARKS): "China has acquired Russian engines to the amount of $500 million site:ruaviation.com".
@ ole Nkarei
I haven't been "prowling in Galkayo", no. Never been to Galkayo actually, and not dying to got there hehe.. So I just know what everyone can know from the media, and my impression is that Puntalnd has two contained problems in Galkayo: southerners and homegrown salafis. Presence of both groups however makes a good environment for Shabaab operatives, even if it doesn't threaten Puntland in any direct way.
Another problem apparently is that the Puntland government and PIS act like an elephant in a China shop, only complicating the rather delicate situation.
Just my impression, can be wrong.

tempest Sat Sep 10 2011, 20:48

Mugwiira wrote:@ Risasi
Please type in Google (WITHOUT QUOTATION MARKS): "China has acquired Russian engines to the amount of $500 million site:ruaviation.com".

Here is the link and article: http://www.ruaviation.com/news/2011/7/4/407/

Rosoboronexport and the Chinese Ministry of Defense have signed a contract on delivery of 123 Al-31FN engines to the total amount of $500 million, Lenta.ru reports.

The first 13 engines will be delivered this year and the rest will be delivered by the end of 2013. The contract will be implemented by Salut.

AL-31FN engines are widely used on Chinese J-10 and J-11 fighters (the modified copy of Su-27). China acquires Russian engines regularly since the engines manufactured in China have low reliability. The Ministry of Defense has acquired 54 engines from Russia in 2003, 100 - in 2007 and 122 - in 2009. Supposedly, most of the acquired engines have been installed on export versions of Chinese fighters in accordance with requirements of the customers.

At present China manufactures WS-10 engines and its derivatives for J-10 and J-11. These engines are copies of Russian AL-31, but they have lower thrust, reliability and time between overhaul. In particular, WS-10A engines are installed on Chinese J-15 deck-based fighter prototype (copy of Su-33), and WS-10G – on fifth-generation J-20 fighter bomber prototype.

Besides AL-31FN, China regularly acquires RD-93 engines in Russia (version of RD-33 engine for the Chinese FC-1 fighter, also delivered to Pakistan as JF-17).

Russian companies MiG and Sukhoi have demanded that Rosoboronexport should stop the deliveries of RD-93 engines to China in 2010. The China’s intention to sell FC-1 fighters to Egypt was the reason for this demand. MiG intends to enter the same market with MiG-29. It has become known later that the delivery of these engines will be continued since FC-1 is not competing with MiG-29 due to its characteristics.

Guest Sat Sep 10 2011, 21:58

@ Spartan

it surely makes for an interistin read, thnk u but am sure there's more to it than rushin troops to the border, more so ugandans shellin kenyan towns freely with no counter battery fire from Kenya? guess now u'll be offerin assylum to Ghaddafi since he's on the run......! anyone with a little more info please feel free and bwana Crane, u can learn a few things from Mr. Spartan.

Guest Sat Sep 10 2011, 22:44

While discussing M7's leaked statements about the Jubbaland project, you must remember that M7 is a shrewd and experienced politician. He can engage in verbal mumbo-jumbo locally, but he's a different man when dealing with the US and wouldn't say something just because he thinks so. He calculates to have a certain reaction from the US.
Normally, someone in his shoes would have supported any additional military pressure against the Shabaab, just to make AMISOM's work easier. He doesn't have to bother if Kenya eventually succeeds or not. Even better for him if Kenya tries and fails.
However, he actively tries to dissuade the US from supporting the Jubbaland initiative, and you can ask yourself why. Because:
1) he doesn't want any resources pulled away from UPDF/AMISOM;
2) he's worried that if Kenya succeeds, his own value to the US will diminish greatly.
As for his "criticism", will just make a short stopover; honestly, he should've done better if he really wanted to convince the US.
The "career army" is a synonym of "professional army" and an antithesis of the "revolutionary army". Hasn't UPDF spent the last 20 years promising to "professionalize" itself?
Then, about Kenyan allies lacking "ideology". Does he mean AMISOM's allies in Mogadishu are "ideological"? Seriously? I know some of you here don't like Jeremy Scahill (the man who wrote about the CIA's Mog facilities) for his sensationalism, but I still insist you read his latest piece (called "Blowback in Somalia") where he very colorfully depicts some of these "ideological" guys such as the White Eyes Yusuf (it has some few good points beyond that, but judge for yourselves).
KDF will fail to supply itself? His own troops in Mog are 100% dependent on DynCorp on anything from body armor to frozen broilers to latrines. So I don't think Uganda perspective on military logistics will be highly appreciated by the Americans. Wink

Remember everything above comes from someone who isn't convinced by the Azania project himself. Wink

Guest Sat Sep 10 2011, 23:29

Mugwiira wrote:
The "career army" is a synonym of "professional army" and an antithesis of the "revolutionary army". Hasn't UPDF spent the last 20 years promising to "professionalize" itself?
Then, about Kenyan allies lacking "ideology". Does he mean AMISOM's allies in Mogadishu are "ideological"? Seriously? I know some of you here don't like Jeremy Scahill (the man who wrote about the CIA's Mog facilities) for his sensationalism, but I still insist you read his latest piece (called "Blowback in Somalia") where he very colorfully depicts some of these "ideological" guys such as the White Eyes Yusuf (it has some few good points beyond that, but judge for yourselves).
KDF will fail to supply itself? His own troops in Mog are 100% dependent on DynCorp on anything from body armor to frozen broilers to latrines. So I don't think Uganda perspective on military logistics will be highly appreciated by the Americans.
Remember everything above comes from someone who isn't convinced by the Azania project himself.

On all points above, I am right at your shoulder. And precisely what I posted in the Chronicles a few hours ago. The man has never risen beyond his wily bandit persona. I doubt Uncle Sam is so easily deceived, though, judging from the expected disbursement of Military Assistance, including the recent tranche that contained the 4 tactical recon drones to UGABAG - it is nearly to a ratio of 10 weighted to KDF; however, the Jubaland Initiative did not dovetail into their intermediate planning, though we are picking up whispers of some change of heart following the Social implosion of central and south Somalia in the face of drought and famine.

Jeremy latest piece is a powerful read, and I find some convergence with some of his opinions.

Flying Crane Sun Sep 11 2011, 06:43

The site is losing its credibility as one of the best military site in east and central Africa thanks to the influx in Nairobi street urchins. Before we would discuses in detail military matter but now we just back to politicking, mad slinging and rumor mongering.

Mr Admin. I second for a vetting process for all the new member, the site is turning into an African village market.

areba Sun Sep 11 2011, 07:30

While discussing M7's leaked statements about the Jubbaland project, you
must remember that M7 is a shrewd and experienced politician. He can
engage in verbal mumbo-jumbo locally, but he's a different man when
dealing with the US and wouldn't say something just because he thinks
so. He calculates to have a certain reaction from the US.

Personally it is disconcerting that policy of a 20-11ish generation country is still dependent on how much uncle sam is going to input. quite like the days our budget was made with a significant portion of revenue being ¨donor aid¨, which makes the approach between KE and UG in somalia radically different on the sustainability front. I stand corrected but war must surely be about how long you can sustain it, and oil or no oil, resources for supporting an agression are very finite especially when doing the math on ROI.

Spartan Sun Sep 11 2011, 10:39

Mugwiira wrote:
However, he actively tries to dissuade the US from supporting the Jubbaland initiative, and you can ask yourself why. Because:
1) he doesn't want any resources pulled away from UPDF/AMISOM;
2) he's worried that if Kenya succeeds, his own value to the US will diminish greatly.
As for his "criticism", will just make a short stopover; honestly, he should've done better if he really wanted to convince the US.
The "career army" is a synonym of "professional army" and an antithesis of the "revolutionary army". Hasn't UPDF spent the last 20 years promising to "professionalize" itself?
Then, about Kenyan allies lacking "ideology". Does he mean AMISOM's allies in Mogadishu are "ideological"? Seriously?
KDF will fail to supply itself? His own troops in Mog are 100% dependent on DynCorp on anything from body armor to frozen broilers to latrines. So I don't think Uganda perspective on military logistics will be highly appreciated by the Americans.
Remember everything above comes from someone who isn't convinced by the Azania project himself.

KDF will fail to supply itself? His question was "Would Kenya be able to provide logistical support to its
Somali allies?"

Let's not water down or take out of context what was in that cable. I
don't agree with your characterisation of 'career army' and M7's reasons
for saying what he said, but at the same time I wouldn't want to
prolong this debate.
The cable was the result of a wide-ranging conversation that touched on many things. Members can read for themselves the cable in full now that some of it's contents are in the public domain. Link is here:

http://www.cablegatesearch.net/cable.php?id=10ADDISABABA280

My own view is that the Yankees do not need anyone's advice on who to support and who not to. They are perfectly able to see what will work and what won't. This time their views and those of M7 just happened to converge. Granted, the cable isn't exactly effusive with it's praise of the KDF, but many people(Kenyans) agree with M7, if the comments on the story in yesterday's DN were anything to go by.

areba Sun Sep 11 2011, 10:56

Thanks spartan, reading the whole cable indeed brings the gist of the discussion into perspective. Maybe what we should be discussing here then is...

1 What are the merits of Musevenis suggestion that to deal with the whole somalia issue it is better to train 20000 boots within somalia and the problems like piracy will go away Vs Jubaland [first with respect to actual results and then with kenyans specific interests in consideration] and

2: Whether the jubaland initiative is sustainable long term and what the implications [especially economic] would be to KDF...

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