Re: Kenya Defence Force

areba Fri Mar 09 2012, 20:07

personally i think it is possible to steer clear of political undertones and just look at events in the realm that we have always looked at them from, after all we have a more than two combined years of doing this save for one or two digressions...

Ned Starks Head Fri Mar 09 2012, 20:16

Spartan wrote:
@ Nead Starks Head, jasiri and company, gumboots are our favorite footwear where we have to cross rivers and mashy, swampy terrain. All those UGABAG troops, once on the trail of Kony will happily exchange their polished boots for gumboots. I myself have gumboots,yeah you heard right.That's what I call experience, quickly adapting to your environment and getting the job done. The LRA is a guerrilla bandit force moving in small groups, to get them, you have to operate like them. I can assure you polished boots, which you somehow equate to professionalism, wouldn't serve you well even on a two week deployment in Garamba.

Like I said in an earlier post, the mission comes first for us. We pa little attention to image.You wouldn't know these, would you? You are probably never won a uniform in your lives (apart from school uniforms, of course).

Brother Spartan please calm down and reread my post. I was complimenting the UPDF and commending them on their professionalism after watching that IRIN video.
I'm not sure why you are taking it in the wrong way. Please reread my post and show me where I have offended. If I have inadvertently apologies it was not my intent. No need to be so prickly - and I really liked my school uniform it was a mark of honour for me too at least for the school I went to Smile

Fabrizio Fri Mar 09 2012, 21:51

I am a civilian but I can tell you a gumboot is an inconvenient thing to wear and move around in, even when doing yard work, for which they are suited; I'd rather be barefoot, if my life depended on my movements. I am very sure there are proper boots made specifically for jungles and marshes(UPDF is not the only army that has fought in these conditions) - maybe they just cost more money than Ug can presently afford. So the preference argument falls flat in my books. Having said that, my opinion is that with improving finances, gumboots will be relegated to their rightful places, in the shambas.

ole Nkarei wrote:
Spartan wrote:

.. gumboots are our favorite footwear where we have to cross rivers and mashy, swampy terrain. All those UGABAG troops, once on the trail of Kony will happily exchange their polished boots for gumboots. I myself have gumboots,yeah you heard right.That's what I call experience, quickly adapting to your environment and getting the job done. The LRA is a guerrilla bandit force moving in small groups, to get them, you have to operate like them. I can assure you polished boots, which you somehow equate to professionalism, wouldn't serve you well even on a two week deployment in Garamba.

In the interest of Kenyana, I wish to be allowed to put perspective to this appellation ‘Gum-boot Army’’ which I admit I coined back in the Chronicle days years ago (that long, eh? !) Like Spartan protests frequently, helas with understandable growing exasperation, kitting with the Gumboots was well considered UPDF adaptation – initially in the early revolutionary days of an expansive politico-army (and skimpy budgets?) and in response to the marshy terrain in which UPDF often deploys both inside and outside Uganda – Uganda has large swathes of marshy terrain in an almost equatorial climate of constant rains. But my first and (sorry Spartan!) enduring impression of the UPDF in my younger days was a massive wall of Gumboots on an reassembly ground – I know this has changed and the ‘’Gumboots’’ are currently an kit from choice. But damn, couldn’t resist a dig into you chaps, man!!

Guest Fri Mar 09 2012, 22:25

Spartan wrote: But we have now an opportunity to put each other's stereotypes at bay in Somalia. Meanwhile, an International Crisis Group report on AMISOM and OLN efforts in Somalia is out. Mostly damning report I must add, especially if you are a big OLN fan.

From the first week of OLN, CNN/Time reporters already said what that report says. Some of the recommendations were even published by the Nation Newspaper in November last year. If I had the time, I would get you the sites urls.

Anyway, how comes their strategies/recommendations for Somalia never bore fruit until Uganda, Kenya & Ethiopia decided to get their hands dirty? If KDF is so ineffective, how will it become more effective by re-hatting to AMISOM, aren't the solders & resources the same? Or will the measly 6 Choppers that UNSC is funding change the Mission.

cylon Fri Mar 09 2012, 23:48

HellCat wrote:
Spartan wrote: But we have now an opportunity to put each other's stereotypes at bay in Somalia. Meanwhile, an International Crisis Group report on AMISOM and OLN efforts in Somalia is out. Mostly damning report I must add, especially if you are a big OLN fan.

From the first week of OLN, CNN/Time reporters already said what that report says. Some of the recommendations were even published by the Nation Newspaper in November last year. If I had the time, I would get you the sites urls.

Anyway, how comes their strategies/recommendations for Somalia never bore fruit until Uganda, Kenya & Ethiopia decided to get their hands dirty? If KDF is so ineffective, how will it become more effective by re-hatting to AMISOM, aren't the solders & resources the same? Or will the measly 6 Choppers that UNSC is funding change the Mission.

A Video to back you up.

[youtube][/youtube]

Guest Sat Mar 10 2012, 02:32

areba wrote:personally i think it is possible to steer clear of political undertones and just look at events in the realm that we have always looked at them from, after all we have a more than two combined years of doing this save for one or two digressions...

Cannot agree more. Far as I can recall, this forum is titled EastAfricanMilitaries. Throw down your slant on the strategic implications of the ICC verdict - for instance. Not an expansion of the political discourse surrounding the ICC Verdict - we can do that on Nipate, Mashada, Jaluo, Mwigwithania, Kibowen - plenty of forums out there where we can scream our political and tribal biases as loud and as long as we want. Tis not about achieving 'neutrality'' but keeping the focus on the purpose of the forum.

Guest Sat Mar 10 2012, 02:42

HellCat wrote:

Anyway, how comes their strategies/recommendations for Somalia never bore fruit until Uganda, Kenya & Ethiopia decided to get their hands dirty? If KDF is so ineffective, how will it become more effective by re-hatting to AMISOM, aren't the solders & resources the same? Or will the measly 6 Choppers that UNSC is funding change the Mission.

''He who pays the piper calls the music''. Or so Johnny thinks. 3 Utility and 3 Attack helios will not dent the AMISOM's need for ''Enablers & Expanders''. Surely it hasn't escaped the attention of discerning chaps here the uncanny timing of the UGAGAB7 breakout from Crazy Town with OLN jump off! Johnny is angling to make KDF his captive Mercenary Army - on this score at least, there is clear divergence between Johnny and Sammy. Greed rules, to varying degrees.

jasiri Sat Mar 10 2012, 08:43

Kenya Defence Force - Page 26 Ugandan%20army2

Sparty, are this LRA too? Does the LRA now operate an air arm? Don't give the climate excuse, Brazil sits on the worlds wettest land masses. As per your line of thinking, they should be the worlds largest consumer of gumboots. Swamps are not limited to Garamba only. Lets not drop this because i am not any closer to believing it is suitable as much as you are closer to admitting it is because of economy.

@Ole Nkarei, some queston you left unaswered. Al-Shabab union with the GalGala militia, it's implication on OLN. Are we going to deploy air borne forces to Puntland or are we going to let em be an d hope they wil funell into the sea?
@Risasi, KQ is set to retire it's fleet of 767's. Hypotheticaly speaking, how much can it cost the Air Force to acquire, refitt and deploy 3 of these as aerial tankers? A fleet of 35 F-15's tasked with protecting the whole of Kenya will definately need aerial refuelling capacity of some sort.

jasiri Sat Mar 10 2012, 09:53

jasiri wrote:

Sparty, are this LRA too? Does the LRA now operate an air arm? Don't give the climate excuse, Brazil sits on the worlds wettest land masses. As per your line of thinking, they should be the worlds largest consumer of gumboots. Swamps are not limited to Garamba only. Lets drop this because i am not any closer to believing it is suitable as much as you are closer to admitting it is because of economy.
@Ole Nkarei, some queston you left unaswered. Al-Shabab union with the GalGala militia, it's implication on OLN. Are we going to deploy air borne forces to Puntland or are we going to let em be an d hope they wil funell into the sea?
@Risasi, KQ is set to retire it's fleet of 767's. Hypotheticaly speaking, how much can it cost the Air Force to acquire, refitt and deploy 3 of these as aerial tankers? A fleet of 35 F-15's tasked with protecting the whole of Kenya will definately need aerial refuelling capacity of some sort.[/quote]

Spartan Sat Mar 10 2012, 10:14

jasiri wrote:

Sparty, are this LRA too? Does the LRA now operate an air arm? Don't give the climate excuse, Brazil sits on the worlds wettest land masses. As per your line of thinking, they should be the worlds largest consumer of gumboots. Swamps are not limited to Garamba only. Lets not drop this because i am not any closer to believing it is suitable as much as you are closer to admitting it is because of economy.

Do you know how to read? This is not the contested pic! The difference between your perspective and mine is that when you look at them you see gumboots, but when I look at them I see reliable battle tested men whom I can rely on in all situations. Is Brazil fighting any war that mandates them to track guerrillas in the jungles? If so, I should have missed it.

What do you mean by 'because of economy'? We have the most sophisticated planes, tanks, and even drones which you will see in Somalia in days. UPDF soldiers receive a new pair of leather boots every six months. They know what to wear for which job and if you don't want what they are wearing, pull up a picture of KDF at Nyayo Stadium. Got it?

Post something more intellectual, we have flogged this dead horse for too long. It's guys like you that make me miss Vitruvian.

MWAURA Sat Mar 10 2012, 10:34

The only thing has changed about the NRA/UPDF is that we are more battle
tested and have more firepower now. Don't let the UGABAG pics fool you.
We are still the masters of effective low budget warfare, gumboots and
all.

Spartan,SIGHHHH!! With your attitude I sometimes wonder what would it be like if roles were reversed? What if you had our military and the economy to properly fund it? Am damn sure we'd have suffered a drastic population decline like the E.DRC.
Anyway,this is one piece of standard UPDF equipment we could use.Nothing more effective at grenade range and short mortar reach.
Kenya Defence Force - Page 26 Milkor_mgs

@Risasi, KQ is set to retire it's fleet of 767's. Hypotheticaly
speaking, how much can it cost the Air Force to acquire, refitt and
deploy 3 of these as aerial tankers? A fleet of 35 F-15's tasked with
protecting the whole of Kenya will definately need aerial refuelling
capacity of some sort.[/quote

Excellent question,jasiri! Risasi,toboa !
Btw,I wonder how effective our Brit DPM is now in the dry season. Everything is tan,brown and yellow in that savanna,semi desert and savanna. The KWS field camo seems IMO more effective.
Kenya Defence Force - Page 26 Kenya_wildlife_rangers@body2

Kenya Defence Force - Page 26 Kenya_wildlife_rangers@body2

Even this old Rhodesian camo.
Kenya Defence Force - Page 26 Pakistani_camo

Nkarei??

Analyst Sat Mar 10 2012, 10:57

War is won only by good strategy execution and complete logistics. The Americans have failed in Afghanistan and Iraq even with their decades of experience besides their great equipment.

KDF strategy and logistics are what even Al-Shabaab Amniyatt Mukhabarat worry about, even American intelligence experts have wondered who came up with that battle strategy.
In most wars or any type of military incursion, winning the support of the locals, pacifying the region, and empowering people is unachievable and many armies pullout disgraced.
But if your hear locals saying 'since the Kenyan soldiers came, we have found peace, get medicine, and some food' and telling a CNN journalist on the face that those soldiers did good....then that's a powerful and capable army.

Spartan Sat Mar 10 2012, 11:17

MWAURA wrote:Spartan,SIGHHHH!! With your attitude I sometimes wonder what would it be like if roles were reversed? What if you had our military and the economy to properly fund it? Am damn sure we'd have suffered a drastic population decline like the E.DRC.
Anyway,this is one piece of standard UPDF equipment we could use.Nothing more effective at grenade range and short mortar reach.

I would rather have our military and your economy, not your military and economy.

East DRC suffered a population decline, as in UPDF caused a genocide there? Little wonder Ugandan leaders are at the ICC. That's why UPDF was banned from peace keeping operations anywhere. It's all clear to me now.

areba Sat Mar 10 2012, 11:28

@ole Nkarei I did dig up more info on the pipes being transported and indeed it is true, work on the oil pipeline has not started but im told most of the piping is already in high seas. And Yes, they anticipate to do it in slightly less than 18 Months subject to adequate privision of security especially in vulnerable areas of the NFD. The Onus then remains on uniforms to ensure speedy execution of the same.

areba Sat Mar 10 2012, 11:52

On this incessantly recurring theme, im afraid i find no intrinsic value in jabbing the fella over and over about the same. Granted, the boots were probably the best case option considering all factors, many of which might not be apparent to us.

I belong to the school of thought that contrary to minor ideological and social changes over about half a century, we are all the same, our DNA is the same, we probably reason (and malreason) we have the same (or similar) enemies, we sit on very similar resources and probably most important, we face the same adversary in the greater geopolitical realm. So while it my be in some testosterone stimulating way gratifying to compare the sizes of our respective drawers, we pale in comparison to our Real enemies....... So how about we appreciate our challenges together and celebrate kenyanaś little by little strides.

Spartan Sat Mar 10 2012, 12:04

areba wrote:On this incessantly recurring theme, im afraid i find no intrinsic value in jabbing the fella over and over about the same. Granted, the boots were probably the best case option considering all factors, many of which might not be apparent to us.

I belong to the school of thought that contrary to minor ideological and social changes over about half a century, we are all the same, our DNA is the same, we probably reason (and malreason) we have the same (or similar) enemies, we sit on very similar resources and probably most important, we face the same adversary in the greater geopolitical realm. So while it my be in some testosterone stimulating way gratifying to compare the sizes of our respective drawers, we pale in comparison to our Real enemies....... So how about we appreciate our challenges together and celebrate kenyanaś little by little strides.

You just made my day. Sorry I had allowed jasiri to help my alter ego get the better of me.

areba Sat Mar 10 2012, 12:07

Spartan wrote:

You just made my day. Sorry I had allowed jasiri to help my alter ego get the better of me.

No Sweat bro, We all need to remember just before we were rudely interrupted, we were doing our salt and cowrie shell thing all over....

Guest Sat Mar 10 2012, 12:36

MWAURA wrote:
Btw,I wonder how effective our Brit DPM is now in the dry season. Everything is tan,brown and yellow in that savanna,semi desert and savanna. The KWS field camo seems IMO more effective.

Even this old Rhodesian camo.

Nkarei??

That DPM debate is old in KDF. The Official DPM fits beautifully in the lush Scottish hills in rainy Britain, and you know there was a time that GoK procurement was a ‘’birthright’’ of rapacious British Companies. Probably as we get increasingly projected in larger formations into Kenyana, there will be choices of DPM to suit conditions. For the present, naughtiness can get you kitted, if you dare!

One time we HALO-ed into the nasty Ogaden before dawn, onto a very dusty bowl without vegetation higher than a foot. Hostile Ethiopians from both sides everywhere. Active from dusk to dawn as is usual, we went to ground till dusk, dug-out shallow trenches throwing sand on ourselves to break up profiles, in a Pentagonal Diamond, feet touching the foot of fella’s opposite – could ‘’erupt’’ out on signaled nudging of foot-to-foot. Pretty much invisible from the Air, even from thirty metres ground-distance, the green DPM blending with the sand soil spluttered on parts of our bodies, kit, individual ground sheets slung over our head and torso. But to a herd of sixty or so intrepid goats seeking feed, we were the only friendly looking patch of green in acres!! Almost broke cover, aborted our jig, when the kids rushed in to herd the goats away. After we extracted, we ‘’broke the rules’’ on DPM each time we went in ‘dark’ into those areas! Dang luck we could… others cannot, though.

MWAURA Sat Mar 10 2012, 15:41

Spartan wrote:
MWAURA wrote:Spartan,SIGHHHH!! With your attitude I sometimes wonder what would it be like if roles were reversed? What if you had our military and the economy to properly fund it? Am damn sure we'd have suffered a drastic population decline like the E.DRC.
Anyway,this is one piece of standard UPDF equipment we could use.Nothing more effective at grenade range and short mortar reach.

I would rather have our military and your economy, not your military and economy.

East DRC suffered a population decline, as in UPDF caused a genocide there? Little wonder Ugandan leaders are at the ICC. That's why UPDF was banned from peace keeping operations anywhere. It's all clear to me now.

Purely as a matter of interest why wouldn't you want 35 md 500s, 70 z9s, mi 28s,24 modernised F-5s,35 soon to arrive F-15 EEs not to mention transport aircraft, 76 Vickers 3 ,200+ T-72s,80 BRDMs? I'm genuinely interested in your reasoning.
Maybe I'm mistaken but the Congolese 2nd secretary at their Nairobi embassy in 2000 personally showed me photos and affidavits of atrocities committed by the UPDF and allies. Wayne Madsen,the UNHCR,BBC and Congolese themselves have reported mass killings and massacres beginning in 96.

Nearly 6 million people have died in the Congo since 1996 due to a
scramble for Congo’s spectacular natural resources.

http://congoweek.org/the-cell-out.html
Here's the IRC study:

he conflict in the Democratic Republic of Congo is arguably the
world’s most deadly crisis since World War II and the death toll far
exceeds those of other recent and more prominent crises, including those
in Bosnia, Rwanda, Iraq, Afghanistan and Darfur.
According to a new survey
released by the International Rescue Committee, an estimated 5.4
million people have died as a consequence of the war and its lingering
effects since 1998.

http://www.rescue.org/congo-crisis-glance
But we could all be wrong-victims of a giant hoax! Look at this resource for the Congo massacres. Its extremely well cited and used by academics.
http://www.genocidewatch.org/drofcongo.html

That DPM debate is old in KDF. The Official DPM fits beautifully in the
lush Scottish hills in rainy Britain, and you know there was a time
that GoK procurement was a ‘’birthright’’ of rapacious British
Companies. Probably as we get increasingly projected in larger
formations into Kenyana, there will be choices of DPM to suit
conditions. For the present, naughtiness can get you kitted, if you
dare!

One time we HALO-ed into the nasty Ogaden before dawn,
onto a very dusty bowl without vegetation higher than a foot. Hostile
Ethiopians from both sides everywhere. Active from dusk to dawn as is
usual, we went to ground till dusk, dug-out shallow trenches throwing
sand on ourselves to break up profiles, in a Pentagonal Diamond, feet
touching the foot of fella’s opposite – could ‘’erupt’’ out on signaled
nudging of foot-to-foot. Pretty much invisible from the Air, even from
thirty metres ground-distance, the green DPM blending with the sand soil
spluttered on parts of our bodies, kit, individual ground sheets slung
over our head and torso. But to a herd of sixty or so intrepid goats
seeking feed, we were the only friendly looking patch of green in
acres!! Almost broke cover, aborted our jig, when the kids rushed in to
herd the goats away. After we extracted, we ‘’broke the rules’’ on DPM
each time we went in ‘dark’ into those areas! Dang luck we could… others
cannot, though.

I'm actually surprised and disappointed amidst this full spectrum KDF upgrade the red collars missed out on this crucial issue. If it were up to me we'd go with the mottled light green/yellow KWS field wear or the old Rhodie camo,which is good in both semi desert ,savanna and forest. I read somewhere a long while ago the US almost chose it after evaluation.

Guest Sat Mar 10 2012, 16:12

This got my blood boiling;

Kenya’s air force is notoriously inexperienced and dilapidated,
even by the modest standards of East African air arms. The air force
possessed roughly 18 U.S.-built F-5 jet fighters dating from the 1970s,
two of which have already been destroyed in the Somalia fighting.

But the guy got a serious whopping for writing stuff he didn't understand. Getting a story from a tweet. See comments.
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/11/kenya-tweets-air-raids/

mJESHI mMOJA Sat Mar 10 2012, 16:36

Latest info. just in 4hr gun battle; AL Shaabab vs Ethiopia army/ Somalia army at gedo. 50 men down….KDF on standby alert.

Risasi Sat Mar 10 2012, 17:18

the Ethiopia defense force was to withdraw this week from Gedo and handover Gedo and surroundings to AMISOM-UPDF/Army
Gendarmerie. The ambush was set during the most venerable time…changing of the guards

@jasiri . KQ is set to retire it's fleet of 767's….the aircraft is retiring from the KQ fleet but still has value in the aviation world. KQ will sell the aircraft to the highest willing bider. KQ is running a bussiness and needs to get the most value from it esp. With the B787 Dreamliner on the horizon.

Purchasing and turning it into a tanker will be an over kill to our military Budget vise vie the pressing ,currently needs and requirements for our defense force. The aircraft still has value under its wings

a good example is the famous Airbus Trios
Nyayo Star…..AKA 5Yankee BEL…Became JY-AGP of Royal Jordanian
Uhuru Star 5Yankee BFT….Albanian Airlines????

Harambee Star 5Yankee-BEN..crash Abidjan (Ivory Coast)

Ole Sidai Sat Mar 10 2012, 17:36

Risasi wrote:the Ethiopia defense force was to withdraw this week from Gedo and handover Gedo and surroundings to AMISOM-UPDF/Army
Gendarmerie. The ambush was set during the most venerable time…changing of the guards

Jonny is already there snipping and mopping......always blah blah. It is coined to show "somalia attack ethiopia troops". Excuse me...... AS is not somalia army.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-17324635

countersniper Sat Mar 10 2012, 18:07

rwigi wrote:This got my blood boiling;
Kenya’s air force is notoriously inexperienced and dilapidated,
even by the modest standards of East African air arms. The air force
possessed roughly 18 U.S.-built F-5 jet fighters dating from the 1970s,
two of which have already been destroyed in the Somalia fighting.

But the guy got a serious whopping for writing stuff he didn't understand. Getting a story from a tweet. See comments.
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/11/kenya-tweets-air-raids/

I HAVE SENT THAT IDIOT ALL THE LINKS ON ANYTHING ABOUT KDF so that he can read and hopefully he will not write such a stupid story again.
this is the idiots hotmail .. below

david_axe@hotmail.com

i urge you guys to send him anything you feel like on kdf please..and ensure he feels the heat for writing nonsense.

Fabrizio Sat Mar 10 2012, 19:27

jasiri wrote:

Sparty, are this LRA too? Does the LRA now operate an air arm? Don't give the climate excuse, Brazil sits on the worlds wettest land masses. As per your line of thinking, they should be the worlds largest consumer of gumboots. Swamps are not limited to Garamba only. Lets not drop this because i am not any closer to believing it is suitable as much as you are closer to admitting it is because of economy.

The explanations given for the gumboots are defensive and unsatisfactory. The only people I have seen in a combat zone with them are Ugandans, and Rwandans maybe? Its true they are an upgrade from the retread-sandals(which I would rather wear) I saw them wearing in the late 90's. The obvious answer is cost is a factor. This is Africa, kickbacks, corruption, cutting corners and favoritism could also play a major role(maybe some big shot has shares in Bata Bullet Uganda branch). Even then, they should at least have something extra that allows the shoe to stick to the foot. Spartan, is there something that we can't see, inside them that clips them to the trousers?

areba Sat Mar 10 2012, 20:03

Im getting feeds of a possible attack in nairobi moments ago. Anyone with info? word has it multiple grenades launched into crowds in landies road....

Guest Sat Mar 10 2012, 20:14

What I am seeing is only on Twitter...says it happened in Country bus station.
That place is awfully crowded.
https://twitter.com/#!/search/%23KRCSALERT

Guest Sat Mar 10 2012, 20:21

I HAVE SENT THAT IDIOT ALL THE LINKS ON ANYTHING ABOUT KDF so that he
can read and hopefully he will not write such a stupid story again.
this is the idiots hotmail .. below

He is a very lazy writer. He did not bother to do even basic research. Then he quotes Press TV. Then basis his conclusions on some very flimsy sites.

Issue is sites like those have fairly large amounts of traffic esp from the West. See how many people shared the story on Twitter for instance.

Got me thinking how about KDF starting an official blog where apart from holding weekly briefings they get someone to actually be blogging about what is happening.

Many people are now online and it may go a long way in giving out first hand-unadulterated info. However it needs careful moderation to avoid people posting useless comments. Allowing comments would be good as KDF would get another avenue of gathering useful information. Alternatively just kill the comments if 'commenters' become too spammy.

Guest Sat Mar 10 2012, 20:25

areba wrote:Im getting feeds of a possible attack in nairobi moments ago. Anyone with info? word has it multiple grenades launched into crowds in landies road....

This feed here says 3 others say 5 fatalities confirmed. Injured taken to hospital.
https://twitter.com/#!/search/kenya
Time to get done with this AS(kama ni hao) once and for all.

Btw... seems someone slept on their jobs again. Ata kama ni weekend!

areba Sat Mar 10 2012, 20:33

nation saying 5 dead, and claiming multiple explosions...

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