Air Superiority Stealth Fighter Jets

Which among these would you choose?


American F-22 Raptor.



The F-35 lightning II also from the US.


Russian Sukhoi T-50 ( also known as PAK FA ).



And the Chinese J-20.

Come on man they belong to deferent categories….only one is stealth for your info. Its like comparing tomatoes to oranges..

Risasi wrote:Come on man they belong to deferent categories….only one is stealth for your info. Its like comparing tomatoes to oranges..

But atleast the T-50 is close to the raptor in stealth capability? No?

Personally i would go with the J-20

IMHO the Raptor stands out. It clearly defies all of the principles of flight more than the others. No need to have both the SU-50 its mirror, the J-20. But am no expert.

Olekoima wrote:Which among these would you choose?


American F-22 Raptor.



The F-35 lightning II also from the US.


Russian Sukhoi T-50 ( also known as PAK FA ).



And the Chinese J-20.

Olekoima wrote:

Risasi wrote:Come on man they belong to deferent categories….only one is stealth for your info. Its like comparing tomatoes to oranges..

But atleast the T-50 is close to the raptor in stealth capability? No?

From my experience and what I know the T-50 can’t achieve the required stealth settings. It seem like the Russians made one of those technical blunder again. I hope they will fix it and bring the jet to its true 5th gen fighter value. As for the J-20 it’s a catch up game towards both super powers. Yes Radar-absorbent materials, or RAM, on all above planes will absorber the Radar energy giving it a low radar signature but the Achilles heels for the J-20 and PAK FA lays in the engine nozzles, they are exposed like conventional fighter jet. with that in mind the design relegates the T-50 and the J-20 to the same class as Boeing F-15SE Silent Eagle(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_F-15SE_Silent_Eagle ) and the F-35 semi stealth fighters (stealth handicap fighters) .

F-15SE.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kn6nx_GGERQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UldoGIMRsSY

Infra-red search and track device like the ones on the UPDF
Su30 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRST ) should be able to sniff out the Infra red emissions(a hot surface) for PAK FA and j-20 from the skies and so should ground based vigilant teams like our 20para using their Infrared Goggles.


This is how stealth engines/tailpipe should be. F-22
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTCGJAoAz_8&feature=related
as compared to
the J-20 jet nozzle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMl9muDS6KE

and PAK FA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDC-hYpFSfQ

The exhaust geometry of a stealth fighter is designed to conceal the turbine/tailpipe of the engine from all but a narrow range of angles at astern/rear position which makes it difficult to track unless directly behind it. A short wavelength infrared device can detect the J-20 and PAK FA from all direction. flat nozzles are better for IR and radar signature reductions

Other exception stealth aircrafts
B-2
http://defense-update.com/20101119_b2_hte.html
f-117
http://www.arcair.com/awa01/101-200/awa187-F-117/images_Steve_Bamford/F-117_04.jpg
http://www.fantastic-plastic.com/F-117A%20STEALTH%20FIGHTER%20PAGE.htm


Stealth technology
http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2001/09/stuff_eng_detail_f117.htm


and we still haven,t look into the capabilities of both.

Risasi
Thanks

What went wrong with the F-117 here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2wYvr20nAg ?

Risasi wrote:

Stealth technology
http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2001/09/stuff_eng_detail_f117.htm


and we still haven,t look into the capabilities of both.

Which one would I choose? I see only one realistic choice, the Sukhoi T-50. The F-22 and F-35 are not for sale, at least not to 'non-traditional' 'strategic' allies of the US. That leaves me with the J-20, which is untested and not yet in service.

What's more, the Sukhoi would not require Ug to make a giant leap in form of adapting to its technology.

The most tested of all these toys is the F-22, but it is yet to see battle too even though its chances of seeing action increased with their deployment to the middle east last month.

The F-35 is reported to have major oxygen issues above 30,000 feet which has cost the lives of at least two pilots so far. Risasi, fancy a ride in one?

@mogen come to think about it I don’t know what happened to the F-117 or why it was retired early. I will do some digging.all i know is that It was an embarrassment to the stealth technology when it fell to a WWII era missile system.

@Spartan a dedicated Su- customer ehh? Ya would fancy a ride on one any day and see how I measure. About the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) its weapon system is locked. i.e you can’t integrated with local software’s ,weapons or upgrade without locked martins approval up. These has made client unhappy, Australia almost pulling out of the consortium.

Elsewhere
I heard rumor of a joint raid on A.S any wind?

The most tested of all these toys is the F-22, but it is yet to see battle too even though its chances of seeing action increased with their deployment to the middle east last month.

The F-35 is reported to have major oxygen issues above 30,000 feet which has cost the lives of at least two pilots so far. Risasi, fancy a ride in one?[/quote]

Actually it is F-22 which got serious issues and not F-35. F-35 is yet to be in full production but already orders from Israel, Japan plus USN.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/may/01/business/la-fi-fighter-pilots-20120502

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2137834/US-fighter-pilots-asked-fly-militarys-200-F-22-Raptors-oxygen-deficit-problems.html

@Risasi: Australia may be unhappy but they are delaying part of their order for financial reasons. They will have no problem getting the ok for upgrades because they work with Sammy too closely to be denied such a request.

Australia's minority Labour Government is dying to fulfil at least one of their many unfulfillable election promises. That is, 'to return the country to surplus by 2012-2013 budget.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-australia-fighterbre84205c-20120502,0,6791550.story

Risasi wrote: ....About the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) its weapon system is locked. i.e you can’t integrated with local software’s ,weapons or upgrade without locked martins approval up. These has made client unhappy, Australia almost pulling out of the consortium....

just thinking, If the S-300 S-400 radar systems can lock onto a stealth aircraft doesn't that then make the advantage of the F-22 minimal in the most vital areas of Lenin's land? and if these radar can lock onto stealth, isn't it then correct to assume that the Russian air force has tested the Pak-Fa against them?

jasiri wrote:just thinking, If the S-300 S-400 radar systems can lock onto a stealth aircraft doesn't that then make the advantage of the F-22 minimal in the most vital areas of Lenin's land? and if these radar can lock onto stealth, isn't it then correct to assume that the Russian air force has tested the Pak-Fa against them?

this is new to me i have to google it out...S-300 can take stealth?

Risasi wrote:

jasiri wrote:just thinking, If the S-300 S-400 radar systems can lock onto a stealth aircraft doesn't that then make the advantage of the F-22 minimal in the most vital areas of Lenin's land? and if these radar can lock onto stealth, isn't it then correct to assume that the Russian air force has tested the Pak-Fa against them?

this is new to me i have to google it out...S-300 can take stealth?

Apparently, it is true the S-300 can pose very grave dangers to modern invading aircraft, and that's why the Americans worked their ass off to convince the Russians not to sell the system to Iran. But if you are scared of the S-300, then you will find yourself in a real spot of bother with the S-400. Its range is 2.5 times better and was built purposely and tested on F117 Nighthawk and B-2 parts.

Remember the F-117 downed in Serbia? An Serbian AA commander used imagination and ingenuity with a Russian 1960s SA-3 battery to devastating effect. Colonel Dani Zoltan's tactics are disclosed here. The parts of that downed bird were used to hone the S-300's missiles and the outcome was the S-400. A Russian Major Gen explains the system's development and how it used F-117 parts here.

They say the proof of the pudding is in the eating. We will never know for sure how 'stealth' these stealth planes are until they come up against systems like the S-400 - and Western planes have never squared off against the S-300/400.

From my perspective the S-300 is famed for its range +300km and its radars ability of tracking 100 targets while engaging up to 12. I find the aspect for SEEING through steath as a bit skeptical from a radar based tracking system. Radar energy doesn’t bounce off stealth platforms and if it does its get scatters giving of a very small radar signature like a bird.
I have Been going through a lot of refreshing and sorting , the only seeker that I think can imagine defeating stealth is the new 3D image seeker, similar seeker like the latest version of the Sidewinder or hellfire but have a limited ID range of 5-10km.
I will keep digging

[quote="Spartan"][quote="Risasi"]

jasiri wrote:just thinking, If the S-300 S-400 radar systems can lock onto a stealth aircraft doesn't that then make the advantage of the F-22 minimal in the most vital areas of Lenin's land? and if these radar can lock onto stealth, isn't it then correct to assume that the Russian air force has tested the Pak-Fa against them?

@Spartan:
The missile will have major difficulties locking on to the F-22 if it has problems detecting it in the first place?
You say :"Remember the F-117 downed in Serbia? An Serbian AA commander used imagination and ingenuity with a Russian 1960s SA-3 battery to devastating effect".

Col Dani Zoltan (of Serbia) was able to down the F-117 because:
1. he used scouts who saw the F-117s take off, therefore he knew it was coming [planning issues were largely
to blame]
2. he moved often to prevent the enemy from getting his location and taking him out
3. he switched his radar on only when he knew the enemy was coming thus lowering his chances of being detected and taken out prior to firing a shot
4. the F-117 was NOT complete stealth, the radar operator of the SA-2 learnt to look for the minute signatures of the F-117 thus he was able to down one.

The fundamental reason why the F-117 was downed was the mistake of mission planners. They had the F-117s performing the same mission every night for several nights at the same time. This was a violation of protocols.

And now, there is talk of the possibility that the U.S. has a stealth spy aircraft capable of Mach 6 flight. Numerous sightings and Bureaucratic (Congressional budget) slips ...etc. Remember, it was years before the F-117 was unveiled.

@Risasi: I have also heard that:
1. fighter pilots who have flown against the F-22 in exercises report that even with the F-22 directly
in front of them they can't get a radar lock. and that
2. Russian S-300 anti-air weapon delivered to Iran
Heard these claims?

In the not too distant future use of meta materials will make aircraft completely invisible. Read more here:
http://discovermagazine.com/2009/apr/10-metamaterial-revolution-new-science-making-anything-disappear

@mogen impressed on your “Air worthiness” esp. with the F-117 / Bosnia incident.

I don,t blame Nato commanders on the issue but give credit to the SAM operators. In conflicts the Airforce always (naturally) takes the shortest route to the target, i.e you save on fuel hence can carry a large payload, take less time to reach your intended target gaining the element of surprise to the enemy. With that info. in hand the SAM team just had to place their Missile batteries below the expected route to Serbia from , Aviano Air Base Italy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviano_Air_Base
the NATO operation base. They then relayed on an informer at the perimeters of the base to inform them when an aircraft had left for a sortie. The SAM battery commander using the known cruise speed of the F-117 calculated and estimated where the aircraft would at a given time heading for the capital. Visual scouts on IR would look of conformation. The rest was history.

@F-22. I still feel the issue on the said aircraft lay between fact and fiction. http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2007/07/first-f-22-rapt/
Lets give it time. They are also gray areas on the delivery of the S-300 to Iran. I bet it is there.

But the interesting part is according to defense analysis the Operation Orchard http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Orchard
was an IDF test using their airborne jamming system against Syria’s acquired S-300 units. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/150059 The IDF passed in flying colors

@Risasi. You give the SAM operators too much credit Bwana. Just read/watch one of the documentary accounts on the search and rescue of the downed F-117A pilot. The SAMs and their operators were nowhere and the man was rescued by a large team which commandeered the air and ground in the vicinity. That was only 40km from Belgrade, and a Serbian Mig fighter base and within 10 miles of three Serb Army brigades of infantry, combat engineered, and armored forces!! The rescue team was on the ground for 40 seconds and the "three helicopters disappeared as quickly as they had arrived on the scene flying at tree-top level out of Serbia through layers of air defense forces now fully alerted to their location". Clearly, the number of men and machinery that were deployed on the site with none lost to SAMs is vey telling. In fact, one of the aircrafts deliberately flew over the SAMs and took out some of them. ( check here http://www.f-117a.com/Vega31/Vega31-2.html ). IMHO the SAMs guys had a bit of luck and their planners took advantage of mission planning mistakes. The night they saved Vega 31 is a good read. Check it here: http://www.airforce-magazine.com/MagazineArchive/Pages/2006/December%202006/1206vega.aspx

I also believe that Iran already has the latest Russian S-300/400. In fact, an Iranian minister is reported to have confirmed this last year.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/iran-official-we-have-obtained-the-s-300-missile-system-1.305954

But is that a deterrent against an IDF attack? I dare say NO. Here is my reason-: I read somewhere that Israel has hacked the S-300 already and that the hack can make one Israeli fighter jet look like fifty. The S-300 launches all its missiles at phantoms. Then the real attack comes. Remember, the IDF-AF first blinded the Syrian SAMs then went in and took out the nuke site - a dress rehearsal of sorts.

Logistics and implications of an IDF attack on Iranian nuke sites: http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/2008/02/3290825

My man up there those are the guys you consider. LoL. I am not the only one that gives credit to Col Dani Zoltan and the Serbia SAM operators, his advisory did too. The US recognized him and invite him for a seminar on the full details but he turn it down .

Secondly, if you know about Vega three one, then I believes you are acquainted to the basher five two ordeal and the tricks/skills that brought a F-16 down. If you’re not conversant, I will tell one of these boys to upload and post an animated version of the F-16 ordeal. With your back ground and knowledge i believe you will comprehend the dedications that the former Yugoslavia AD teams had.

The SAM operators operated their equipments to the later, no luck amigo, the two incidents (F-16 and F117) demonstrate skills and determination from those team.
http://www.defenceaviation.com/2007/02/how-was-f-117-shot-down-part-1.html

But is that a deterrent against an IDF attack? I dare say NO. Here is my reason-: I read somewhere that Israel has hacked the S-300 already and that the hack can make one Israeli fighter jet look like fifty. The S-300 launches all its missiles at phantoms

Its known as DJ. Deceptive jamming.
http://itlaw.wikia.com/wiki/Deceptive_jamming

@Risasi
Nakubali. While up there the likes of Col Dani are the guys to watch. I understand he was an astute operator of the SAMs, he even managed to modify them to increase wavelength giving them a significant boost. Mission planning mistakes too contributed. Any day, surprise is preferable to being predictable.

I think I have an idea why the F-117 were retired. NATO did not get a chance to bomb the downed F-117 before the enemy got access to it and made away with parts of the wreckage that gave away its stealth technology secrets.
Moreover, the Raptor promised improved and 'not-yet-stolen' stealth technology.

The F-117 was the most expensive research aircraft in modern history. to down it using the 60’s technology system pain the Yankees. So are you familiar with the Basher five two? During the Israeli – Arab war the Israeli lost 100 aircrafts to Arab SAM batteries. NATO played the same game in their HQ had it been them against the Russia. The results were they was no way that NATO at the present moment could penetrate USSR air space. This lead to the start of Project Have blue which lead to project Senior Trend.

Risasi wrote:The F-117 was the most expensive research aircraft in modern history. to down it using the 60’s technology system pain the Yankees. So are you familiar with the Basher five two? During the Israeli – Arab war the Israeli lost 100 aircrafts to Arab SAM batteries. NATO played the same game in their HQ had it been them against the Russia. The results were they was no way that NATO at the present moment could penetrate USSR air space. This lead to the start of Project Have blue which lead to project Senior Trend.

@Risasi
Yes, am very familiar with Basher five-two. Recently, my youngest son was so captivated listening to it he couldn't go to sleep until that bedtime story was over. In fact, I've got a copy of Capt O'Grady's best selling book: "Basher Five-two: The True Story Of F-16 Fighter Pilot Captain Scott O'Grady".

Everything in Basher five-two is spectacular. The targeting by SA-6 SAMs was spectacular. O'Grady's survival was spectacular and his rescue after 6 days deep inside enemy territory was even more spectacular. The respective teams were astute as it gets. We must give credit to Basher five-two's survival. Six days of licking dew from leaves, eating leaves, grass and insects and hiding/dodging Serbians hunting for him...

Yes, their accounts of what actually happened are often massaged to paint the picture they want people to see. But who does not do that?

The downing of the expensive F-117 by antiquated SAM technology and subsequent teasing that Sammy got from the Serbs [ati we didn't it was invisible bla bla ] was painful.

Have Blue and Trend. Interesting. The Bird was pricey. Flew 27 years and retired/went away as stealthily as it was introduced. Only 64 ever built. 7 said to have crashed. Rest now in storage underground. Parts of one said to have been taken to Russia and some to China. What the Russians and Chinese are doing/have done with those sensitive tech parts is anybody's guess.

I also enjoy reading Basher five-two and watching the movie also "behind enemy lines". Not to divert the thread too much but Boeing just recently revealed The Phatnom Ray Drone that would run with out the need of a drone pilot fully autonomous, So my question is was it worth it for the USA to waste billions into the f-22/35 birds when a better, sophisticated, alluring Drone will do the job for less that the cost of the entire 22/35 projects.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1277235/Phantom-Ray-Boeing-unveils-spy-plane-future.html

cylon wrote:...my question is was it worth it for the USA to waste billions into the f-22/35 birds when a better, sophisticated, alluring Drone will do the job for less that the cost of the entire 22/35 projects.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1277235/Phantom-Ray-Boeing-unveils-spy-plane-future.html

@Cylon
Nothing can/will, really, replace the need for human intelligence up in the skies or elsewhere if decision making is required. No matter how well and precisely they work Drone will still need to be complimented by boots in the air.

My pesa nane [2 cents worth..]

@Risasi
Yes, am very familiar with Basher five-two. Recently, my youngest son was so captivated listening to it he couldn't go to sleep until that bedtime story was over.

@cylon . I tell “behind enemy lines” is like 5% skills used against Basher five two.i.e loosely based on the incident. I think Mogen will agree with me. The ground fellows were smart. I will host you the reacted version plus new KDF clips from that villager.

@F-22/F-35 expert say the aircraft was bit too late for the battlefield and the next future FIGHTER will be pilot less. They say so, we are yet to see.
When the F-4 was commission it come with an advance missile system and they said they wasn’t need to have a canon/gun mounted for dogfights on the fighter. The F-4 was said that It could destroy the enemy before reaching a dog fighting range. And if he did heat seeking missile would take care of the dogfight. USAF woke up to a rude shock when the F-4 was faced with the MiG-19/21 in the Far East.

Risasi wrote:

F-22/F-35 expert say the aircraft was bit too late for the battlefield and the next future FIGHTER will be pilot less. They say so, we are yet to see.
When the F-4 was commission it come with an advance missile system and they said they wasn’t need to have a canon/gun mounted for dogfights on the fighter. The F-4 was said that It could destroy the enemy before reaching a dog fighting range. And if he did heat seeking missile would take care of the dogfight. USAF woke up to a rude shock when the F-4 was faced with the MiG-19/21 in the Far East.

@Risasi
The debate on man-man war vs robot-combat has been raging for sometime and that debate was intensified by the introduction of Drones. The ability to do damage on the enemy while avoiding risk to lives [eg by using pilotless aircraft] is desirable/attractive and that is why more and more countries are racing to acquire drones or drone technology. But will they completely replace boots in the air? Of course, a time may come when drones may be nuclear-powered drones may be able to fly longer and further and even engage in a drone-drone dogfight.
Methinks, boots in the air will be there fore a long time to come.

Nevertheless, it is no easy task predicting how war will be conducted in future. See "Predicting Warfare In the 2040s" here http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htmurph/articles/20120517.aspx

On another note: Between the Su and MiG Which bird is superior to the other?

On another note: Between the Su and MiG Which bird is superior to the other?

It's like asking between the F-16 and F-15 which is better. They are both designed to fulfill different roles. The MiG's are a lightweight air superiority fighter similar to the F-16 in the USAF while the Sukhois are Long range air superiority heavy weight like the F-15. This trend has continued even with the latest aircraft built by Mikoyan Gurevich and the Sukhoi Corporation. The MiG-35 has maintained it's predecessors role, though by virtue of it's take off weight increasing it was moved up from light eight to medium weight. Su-30MK2, Su-35, PAK FA T-50 have maintained their long-range air dominance role. It's like an X-country coach and a city bus.
personally i am impressed by the order in Russian aviation Industry. MiG handles the short range, Sukhoi handles the long range; Ilyushin handles the tactical heavies, Antonov(essentially Ukrainian) handles the Strategic.

I also enjoy reading Basher five-two and watching the movie also "behind enemy lines". Not to divert the thread too much but Boeing just recently revealed The Phatnom Ray Drone that would run with out the need of a drone pilot fully autonomous, So my question is was it worth it for the USA to waste billions into the f-22/35 birds when a better, sophisticated, alluring Drone will do the job for less that the cost of the entire 22/35 projects

i was watching a docu on this bird n i gt to say i'm impressed. Autonomous landings and take-offs, autonomous mission execution tho with a man-in-the-loop capability, can ride a mm wave to a perfect carrier landing, pulls G's like no one's business, can loiter forever subject to availability of fuel...this is what every air force commander dreams about. We are a dying breed bulletman.

jasiri wrote:

I also enjoy reading Basher five-two and watching the movie also "behind enemy lines". Not to divert the thread too much but Boeing just recently revealed The Phatnom Ray Drone that would run with out the need of a drone pilot fully autonomous, So my question is was it worth it for the USA to waste billions into the f-22/35 birds when a better, sophisticated, alluring Drone will do the job for less that the cost of the entire 22/35 projects

i was watching a docu on this bird n i gt to say i'm impressed. Autonomous landings and take-offs, autonomous mission execution tho with a man-in-the-loop capability, can ride a mm wave to a perfect carrier landing, pulls G's like no one's business, can loiter forever subject to availability of fuel...this is what every air force commander dreams about. We are a dying breed bulletman.

Same way i felt Jas.

@Mogen i agree that we will always need man in the skies but that role is getting smaller and smaller everyday with governments willing to remove war causalities with machines that will be inexpensive to replace which is easier than someones life, reminds me of that movie stealth and the upcoming video game blackops 2 that this infrastructure of drones will be susceptible to a killer virus that hackers will use to take control of the systems and turn these complex machines on us its just ironic.

@Risasi There was always something about that movie that never did feel rite if hollywood had stayed with the original transcripts the movie would have been superb.....Yes its to early to say if this autonomous drone will be a success but all signs are pointing there.

The first to clips are relevant with our discussion the while complete the story.

clip 1

https://youtu.be/rR4-RNnEUl4
clip 2

https://youtu.be/VKv-Cwjgkhk


clip 3

https://youtu.be/_uW4TL6qyFs

clip 4


https://youtu.be/P6UqmO9UEKo

clip 5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZc0EjpyeG8